Ruben Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Hi Gentlemen, ever since I´am asking my self why the straight "sword" established in kendo. I beliefe that it´s harder to handle a straight one. Also in kenjutsu they using stright "swords". I´am not shure. Thought better to ask, maybe some one nows how this developed. Regards Ruben Quote
Clive Sinclaire Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Ruben As I just returned from kendo about one hour ago, I thought I should attempt to answer your question, as I understand it. "Modern" Kendo as we know it was started in 16th century Japan when the straight bamboo shinai largely replaced the swords of the estabished kenjutsu schools. This was so that technique and training could be done without causing severe injyury. At the same time kendo armour (doh, men and kote) were developed with the same objectives. It is said that the almost straight sword, tapering to a smallish point, was directly influenced by the popularity of the shinai. As this was mainly taking place in the Kanbun period (1662-1672) the "striaght" sword shape is known as the Kanbun sugata and is an easy jidai kantie point. Regards Clive Sinclaire Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Ruben, I'm not sure which "straight sword" you're talking about. Other than shinai, we use standard bokken/bokuto in our kendo dojo. Quote
sanjuro Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Gentlemen. If I may add my two cents worth: Of the many martial ryu that practice kenjutsu, only two stand out as having a straight bokken. The Jikishinkage Ryu and the Kurama Ryu. The Miyamoto Musashi Ryu also has a straight bokken although the Niten Ichi Ryu which is also associated with Miyamoto Musashi as its founder, uses a curved bokken. The rest all use a curved bokken. That is to say their bokken are curved to a greater or lesser degree depending upon the Ryu. These however are all special to the individual Ryu and are used only within the Ryu itself. The most widely accepted bokken is a curved oak weapon. We did have a thread about bokken a while back where a chart was published giving the various types, but damned if I can find it now. Below is a copy of the chart. I am sure Clive or Ken will correct me if I am amiss, and I mean no disrespect to the art of kendo in this observation, but Kendo as it is practiced today is more of a sport version of the the original swordsmanship practices of the samurai. Its a long time since I practiced it, but as I remember, it admits only one thrust (to the throat) and a single cut to the torso ( and I think also one to the wrist) and consists of mostly attacks to the head with a men cut. The cuts are delivered as a blow or a pushed cut (full contact) rather than a drawn cut. These are directed against a limited number of target areas on the body which are all armoured. Kenjutsu however,(with which I am far more intimately familiar), being a more complex martial art in itself, consists of an almost infinite variety of drawn cuts, dragged cuts, thrusts and slashes as well as tsuka strikes to various parts of the body. It is generally practiced as kumitae without armour (and minimal contact). The differences between Kendo and Kenjutsu are legion, although they both deal with swordsmanship at quite different levels they are complimentary to the art of swordsmanship overall. Quote
Ruben Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Posted January 12, 2012 RubenAs I just returned from kendo about one hour ago, I thought I should attempt to answer your question, as I understand it. "Modern" Kendo as we know it was started in 16th century Japan when the straight bamboo shinai largely replaced the swords of the estabished kenjutsu schools. This was so that technique and training could be done without causing severe injyury. At the same time kendo armour (doh, men and kote) were developed with the same objectives. It is said that the almost straight sword, tapering to a smallish point, was directly influenced by the popularity of the shinai. As this was mainly taking place in the Kanbun period (1662-1672) the "striaght" sword shape is known as the Kanbun sugata and is an easy jidai kantie point. Regards Clive Sinclaire Dear Clive Thank you very much for the explination, I didn´t associated Kanbun straight swords with kendo. Best regards! Ruben Quote
Ruben Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Posted January 12, 2012 Gentlemen. If I may add my two cents worth: Of the many martial ryu that practice kenjutsu, only two stand out as having a straight bokken. The Jikishinkage Ryu and the Kurama Ryu. The Miyamoto Musashi Ryu also has a straight bokken although the Niten Ichi Ryu which is also associated with Miyamoto Musashi as its founder, uses a curved bokken. The rest all use a curved bokken. That is to say their bokken are curved to a greater or lesser degree depending upon the Ryu. These however are all special to the individual Ryu and are used only within the Ryu itself. The most widely accepted bokken is a curved oak weapon. We did have a thread about bokken a while back where a chart was published giving the various types, but damned if I can find it now. Below is a copy of the chart. [attachment=0]Bokken Types.jpg[/attachment] I am sure Clive or Ken will correct me if I am amiss, and I mean no disrespect to the art of kendo in this observation, but Kendo as it is practiced today is more of a sport version of the the original swordsmanship practices of the samurai. Its a long time since I practiced it, but as I remember, it admits only one thrust (to the throat) and a single cut to the torso ( and I think also one to the wrist) and consists of mostly attacks to the head with a men cut. The cuts are delivered as a blow or a pushed cut (full contact) rather than a drawn cut. These are directed against a limited number of target areas on the body which are all armoured. Kenjutsu however,(with which I am far more intimately familiar), being a more complex martial art in itself, consists of an almost infinite variety of drawn cuts, dragged cuts, thrusts and slashes as well as tsuka strikes to various parts of the body. It is generally practiced as kumitae without armour (and minimal contact). The differences between Kendo and Kenjutsu are legion, although they both deal with swordsmanship at quite different levels they are complimentary to the art of swordsmanship overall. Dear Sanjuro, thank you for your explenations. Indeed to days Kendo is different from edo period´s kendo. It´s not allowed to attack legs nor to throw someone or grabbing the oponents sword etc. I am studying Muso Jikiden Eshin Ryu- Iaijutsu for example. We use very large swords like 3 shaku, and little Zori. I meant the Shinkage Ryu kenjtusu and Daito Ryu kenjutsu, also very heavy bokuto for strenth trainin are straight. And interestingly in kendo they use a straight shinai. My thought was there must be a advantage, cause the handling of a stright stick is very different from a curved. A curved one will allow diffent movements, quicker turns as I had the feeling. And also one handed it will be easier to manage. My idea was, that they used a straight one on purpose... to great a handicap. Best Regards! Ruben Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 Ruber, I've been training in MJER for decades, & don't think I've ever seen a blade as long as what you are using. My own iaito is considered fairly long at 2.55 shaku, so your blade qualifies as a tachi (defined as 30-inch nagasa or longer)! I would be very interested in seeing how you do sayabiki & noto. I've heard of martial artists who use nodachi (take a look at http://koryu.com/photos/aj1042.html for an example), but that's sure not how I learned MJER! Ken Quote
drjoe Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 Gentlemen. If I may add my two cents worth: Of the many martial ryu that practice kenjutsu, only two stand out as having a straight bokken. The Jikishinkage Ryu and the Kurama Ryu. also kashima shin ryu bokken are thick and straight. i would be interested to know more about this evolution. Quote
Ruben Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Posted January 13, 2012 Ruber, I've been training in MJER for decades, & don't think I've ever seen a blade as long as what you are using. My own iaito is considered fairly long at 2.55 shaku, so your blade qualifies as a tachi (defined as 30-inch nagasa or longer)! I would be very interested in seeing how you do sayabiki & noto. I've heard of martial artists who use nodachi (take a look at http://koryu.com/photos/aj1042.html for an example), but that's sure not how I learned MJER! Ken Hi Ken, time does not matter in most cases. If someone understanding it as a hobby and goes to keiko once a week, he will never become a good swordsman maybe. Regearding the long swords, we fallow Sekiguchi Komei, he is using also a very large sword. The reason is that we have to execute a very clean and dynamic technic, otherwise it wouldn´t be possible to do noto in the right way. Sayabiki/sayabanare without useing the hips wouldn´t be effectiv, for example when proforming "ippon me mae" the hip would turn inverts befor doing sayabiki and outverts after, just a little. It has much to do with kime. The action always starts from the hips and hara.... sorry I don´t now how to describe it. Maybe this sounds strange, but fallowing the idea of ying&yang describes it very good... to every outverted move there must be contrary movement. This principle makes it possible to act near to forceless and when needed very fast, so the waight and sice of the swords does not matter that much. The trick is using the hipps and making big, big stepps when possible (feets pointing always inverts). We wearing our swords ha upside so it should be katana :D . I got used to 3 shaku after having problems of course, but if you can handle a big sword you can use a "normal siced" very easy. Of course you have to be carefull with short ones afterwards, but the technic never changes, it´s always the same. I like other scools as well and try to find advantages, cause our style is pretty useless when fighting in buildings for example. Every scool has class of its own. Best regards ruben Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 So Ruben, the Yamauchi Ha? Tell us about your school. Where is it? Are there many students? I know Sekiguchi Takaaki sensei used to get around to the various schools. Does he still travel and give lessons? MJER uses a fairly long sword as do I, but, 3 shaku is certainly long. John Quote
Jacques Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 Hi, Clive san, It is said that the fukuro shinai was invented by Ise-no-Kami Fujiwara Hidetsuna/Nobutsuna (1508/1577?). He was a member of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu and became the founder of the Shinkage ryu. Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 Very interesting, Ruben! We also use our hips in sayabiki/sayabanare/noto, so I guess I could handle another 1/2 shaku, but that sure seems like an awfully long blade for MJER. When you're doing Ukenagashi sono ichi or the Ittomagoi sets, for example, you can't easily use your hips during the draw, & I'd hate to think of how I would perform Bangai! I guess you can used to anything, though. Ken Quote
Ruben Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Posted January 13, 2012 Hi Ken, Ukenagashi... as i would do it: its always important when drawing to high point to start from low tsuka position. (Again "ying&Yang" :D , soft and hard, slow and fast :D). For example ukenagashi from tatehiza, I´am touching the ground with kashira (trick from Sekiguchi Komei´s teacher) and this is the point were I`am stepping with the left lag (out of opponents attack). So than I change to the right foot and lean back to the uke and come to stomp left than right and catch tsuka to stop the one handed cut. Hard to explain, I can try to be more precise....sorry Itomagoi is also no problem, it´s even possible to jump to a standing position, there is again a trick. Greetings Ruben Quote
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