Problem finding out smith and providence.

[sprelligosi]

Well I need a hand. I´m trying to find out out the name of smith and providence so that I can look up more info. I think having some translations problem.

Can you identify this for me please.

 

All other relative information would be greatly appreciated.

 

thx.

 

 

-Heidar

[sprelligosi]

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/11143.html

[John A Stuart]

I don't understand what you need. The site tells you the smith is Nobuyoshi of Yamashiro no Kuni. The write up does mention he is an owazamono 大業物 優作 yusaku smith. John

[sprelligosi]

I´m trying to look him up in the swordsmith index.

 

Which one is h?e or am i typing wrong keywords.

 

http://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/list ... rt_era=All

 

One more what does the flower on the tang stand for?

[Bugyotsuji]

(Edited, see post below)

 

Most but not all of the Japanese is translated into English. The title says in brackets (Kiku Mon) which is the chrysanthemum mark on the Nakago tang.

[kazarena]

Hi Heidar,

 

It's this one:

 

http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/NOB586

 

He is listed in Settsu province, but he is from Yamashiro I think.

 

Regards,

Stan

[sprelligosi]

Thank´s for the help.

 

So i´ts safe to assume that this was made for a member of the imperial family?

[cabowen]

No, not safe to assume. He was granted the use of the kiku and most likely put it on all his blades thereafter.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Hi Heidar,

 

It's this one:

 

http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/NOB586

 

He is listed in Settsu province, but he is from Yamashiro I think.

 

Regards,

Stan

 

 

No, the one on Samurai ShoKai is the shodai Nobuyoshi, whom never signed Rai 来

[sprelligosi]

This one ?

 

http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/NOB591

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Yes

[kazarena]

Dear Jacques,

 

Would you mind sharing the sources where I can read more about Shodai Nobuyoshi signing Echizen no Kami?

 

Regards,

Stan

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Sorry, after checking my library it appears i'm totally wrong. :?

[sprelligosi]

Features: Shinkichi first generation 金三郎 high name in the blacksmith-based commodities, blacksmith Yusaku the roundabout house commodities were allowed to cut Ass based Habaki children of Shinkichi protect Shinano first, later years forging has moved to Ban Large The sword, known as 大業物

 

 

House commodities were allowed to cut Ass based Habaki children of Shinkichi. - Lol

 

The sword known as: 大業物 -Could anyone translate this for me please?

[John A Stuart]

I did already, Owazamono. John

[sprelligosi]

In the database it says 'Workmanship and style Engraved Kiku Mon. Wazamono'

 

so it must be Shinano no Kami Nobuyoshi (1st gen)

 

one question what does Wazamono mean?

 

taken from nihontocraft.

"Takai Nobuyoshi　高井信吉

1) Nobuyoshi, 1st generation, 1644, Yamashiro, wazamono, (Kiku) Yamashiro (no) Kuni Fujiwara Nobuyoshi (菊紋) 山城国藤原信吉, Shinano (no) Kami Minamoto Nobuyoshi 信濃守源信吉. Takai is the family name. Nobuyoshi was considered a Mishina school smith active between 1644 and 1672. He made swords with Yamashiro influence and did some works with his brother, Rai Nobuyoshi. Swords signed with both names exist. There is an example of those in Tokotaikan page 490. He worked in suguha and gunome with nie deep nioi.

 

2) Nobuyoshi, 2nd generation, 1673, Yamashiro, (Kiku) Yamashiro (no) Kami Fujiwara Nobuyoshi (菊紋) 山城国藤原信吉. Son of the first generation, he was active between 1673 and 1703 in the Kyoto area.

 

3) Nobuyoshi, 1661, Settsu, o-wazamono, (Kiku) Takai Echizen (no) Kami Minamoto Rai Nobuyoshi (菊紋) 高井越前守源来信吉, Echizen (no) Kami Minamoto Rai Nobuyoshi 越前守源来信吉, Nyudo Minamoto Rai Nobuyoshi 入道 源来信吉. He is the 2nd brother of the first generation Nobuyoshi moved to Osaka from Kyoto. His priest name was Tomonobu. His suguha is very similar to that of Shinkai. His early (Kiku) was cut to the nakago and later ones, after 1673, were engraved. The Ichi character was also used with (Kiku) after 1688. He was considered the best in the family active between 1655 and 1703.

 

4) Nobuyoshi, 1661, Settsu, Takai Awa (no) Kami Fujiwara Nobuyoshi 高井 阿波守藤原信吉. This is the youngest brother of the first generation Nobuyoshi.

 

5) Nobuyoshi, 1688, Settsu, Sagami (no) Kami Nobuyoshi 相模守信吉. Son of the 4) Nobuyoshi was active around 1680 in the Osaka area.

 

 

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

one question what does Wazamono mean?

 

 

Wazamono is a ranking of sharpness. In 1815 A sword tester Yamada Asaemon Yoshitoshi wrote a book (Kaiho Kenjaku) in wich he discussed and ranked 180 swords on wich cutting tests are made by the author. The ranks are like this : Saijo O-Wazamono, O-Wazamono, Ryo Wazamono and Wazamono.

 

This ranking is obviously partial, because a great amount of swords are never tested.

 

Like already said, Echizen no kami Nobuyoshi is ranked O-Wazamono.

[Guido]

To be more precise:

 

The sword tester (Suemono Kirite 据物斬手) Yamada Asaemon 山田浅右衞門 listed in the Kaihō Kenjaku 懐宝剣尺 (published in 1797 寛政九年, reprinted in 1805 文化二年) swords according to their cutting abilities (Kireaji 斬味), and ranked them as follows:

 

最上大業物 = Saijō Ō-Wazamono, i.e. best - 13 smiths

大業物 = Ō-Wazamono, i.e. excellent - 22 smiths

良業物 = Yoki-Wazamono (often wrongly read "Ryō-Wazamono"), i.e. very good - 54 smiths

業物 = Wazamono, i.e. good - 91 smiths

 

He later added a mixed list 混合 of Ō-Wazamono, Yoki-Wazamono and Wazamono, containing 66 more smiths.

 

His descendant Yamada Asaemon Yoshimutsu 山田浅右衞門吉睦 wrote the Kokon Kaji Bikō 古今鍛冶備考 in 1830 (天保元年), in which he revised and amended the ranking in the Kaihō Kenjaku, bringing the number of listed Wazamono (and higher) smiths to 1,111.

 

The first work is a simple scroll (I saw an original at the NBTHK), the second a seven volume set of books (I own a set). Just the names and the ranking is given, no further info. Unlike Yamada Asaemon, Yamada Yoshimutsu also tested quite a few famous swords.

[sprelligosi]

The flow of questions continues.

 

What is the definition og iga no kami title.

 

Was this bestoved by a shogun/daymo/empereror and are there any higher/lower titles?

 

-Heidar

[DirkO]

守 Kami

大掾 Daijô

掾 Jô

介 Suke

 

1. Kami - Kami means Lord and would be seen in a mei that may read for example, Iga (no) Kami in your case would mean Lord of Iga province. Hawley’s lists Kami as the highest rank or title that a smith may possess.

 

2. Daijô - Daijô refers to a Second or Assistant Lord. Hawley’s lists Daijô as the Second highest rank or title that a smith may possess.

 

Other titles are Jô and Suke. These are pretty much the same as far as rank goes and would rank as Third Lord or Second Assistant Lord.

 

In the mid 16th century, it became common practice to add official and honorary titles to mei. These were usually in the form of Kami, Daijo and Suke for official titles and Fujiwara, Minamoto, Taira and others for honorary titles. These titles were sometimes handed out by Daimyo and other lords for services rendered, but it is also believed they were sometimes purchased, or given out as bribes. There is some conjecture as to their significance, some say they have varying degrees of importance, others think they aren't all that meaningfull.

 

--- The above came from the excellent Kanji Pages by Richard Turner: http://www.jssus.org/nkp/common_kanji.html

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

These were usually in the form of Kami, Daijo and Suke for official titles and Fujiwara, Minamoto, Taira and others for honorary titles

 

No Kami, no Daijo, no Suke and no Jo are honorary titles. Fujiwara, Taira, Tachibana, Sugawara, Minamoto are clan's names (arbitrarily chosen). you can also find some buddhist name or title such Nyûdô and others.

[sprelligosi]

the word Owazamono doesent that mean great job or big job or something similar?

[John A Stuart]

Word Frequency Average Position in Input Area Type Length Reading Meanings

業物 86 1 2 わざもの sharp sword

業 50 1 1 わざ deed, act, work, performance

業 50 1 1 ごう Buddhist karma, actions committed in a former life

物 123 2 1 もの thing, object

[sprelligosi]

So different meaning of the same word.

 

i also want to continue the flow of questions.

 

Which school does Echizen no Kami Nobuyoshi belong to.Is it Mishna ??

[Ray Singer]

Which school does Echizen no Kami Nobuyoshi belong to.Is it Mishna ??

 

The Nobuyoshi line is considered Mishina school. The shodai was one of the Kyoto Go Kaji. I'd like to say that the shodai was a student of Iga (no) Kami Kinmichi, but I'm going off memory and am sure someone will correct me here.

[cabowen]

Takai Nobuyoshi line is listed as Mishina but a separate line from the Kyo go kaji in the Meikan....

[sprelligosi]

Thank you guys for the invaluable information so far.

 

I´m going to continue to use the well of information that is this forum.

 

The boshi, although it´s hard to see on the pictures is it Ko-maru or Jizo?

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sy_sword/sw11143/z.jpg

[John A Stuart]

Komaru. John

[sprelligosi]

This will be my final question regarding this particular sword (fingers crossed )

 

The Mon, the Chrysanthemums on the Tang. Who would bestow the honor for the smith to put this mark on the blade. Would it be a Shogun, Daimyo or the Emperor himself. I have been trying to google history in the Yamashiro province around 1673 but was unsuccessful. All I have found out the the emperor at that time was Reigen. I have not found any names or information on who would possibly grant the mon usage. Any ideas?