Question about maker and quality

[FlorianB]

Hello everybody,

 

I want to show You a tsuba I own, probably from the late Edo period. The measures are 7,3 x 6,7 cm (about 2,88 x 2,64 inch) , thickness of the seppa-dai is 0,75 cm (0,295 inch). It is signed „Shigejuro“ or „Mojuro“ (thanks, Markus, for translation help!) with Kakihan, „Tachibana uji“ and on the reverse „Sesshu ju“.

 

 

 

 

 

Because Tsuba are an ancillary interest of mine I have only a few reference books and I wonder if anybody can give me some facts about this man?

 

My second question concerns the quality of this piece. On the one hand the body of the dragon is precisely cut and shaped, on the other hand the modeling of the waves appears to be flat in spite of the thickness. Furthermore, the design runs vividly through both ana, the rim, however, is plain.

 

I would be grateful to hear Your opinions.

 

Florian

[k morita]

Hi,

Wow,Terrible power!

It is like a sumi-e painting that draws the dragon.it's great! :D

[Ludolf Richter]

Excellent workmanshift!There is no such artist to be found in the index-books and in my database:

1.Maybe there is a different reading of the 2 Kanji or

2.it's a seldom used Go of that artist,not yet in the books,while he normally had another standard-go.

Does anybody know an artist-family or a single tsubako with or without the Tachibana-clanname from Settsu?

Ludolf

[Soshin]

Dear Florian,

 

Nice tsuba the low relief craving is really good. The dragon looks evil and angry possibly coming out of a tsunami wave. Could you show a photo of the tsuba rim? The style reminds me of some of the better work during the late Edo Period and thickness of the plate also points to that time period as well. Thanks for posting the tsuba for discussion.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[FlorianB]

Hi Guys,

 

thanks for Your responses.

At first I want to point out that I’m not fishing for compliments - thanks anyhow .

 

Secondly, two additional photos:

 

 

 

 

 

To specify my problem, I learned that the more detailed, precise and deep a carving is the better is the workmanship and thus the quality. In this tsuba I see a discrepancy between the shaping of the dragon and the mould of the waves. IMO due to the plain rim the tsuba appears to be incomplete, too. Did the maker lost his interest or did a student collaborate? Or are there practical or aesthetic reasons (i.e. an intentional contrast)?

 

Greetings,

Florian

[Soshin]

IMO due to the plain rim the tsuba appears to be incomplete, too. Did the maker lost his interest or did a student collaborate? Or are there practical or aesthetic reasons (i.e. an intentional contrast)?

 

Greetings,

Florian

Hi Florian,

 

If a student collaborated in making the tsuba often it would bare two mei on the seppa-dai. I have one tsuba like this in my collection and have seen a few others like this as well. I agree the rim does look a bit unfinished or it could of had a fukurin or soft metal cover (like shakudo or copper) that was lost at some point. Overall I still think it is a nice tsuba and above average for the time period it was made.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[FlorianB]

I’m sorry that I’m still harping on the quality.

Could there be any details specified which prove the quality or is it necessary to compare this piece with other ones to get an impression?

 

Yours, Florian

[Soshin]

Could there be any details specified which prove the quality or is it necessary to compare this piece with other ones to get an impression?

 

Hi Florian,

 

The detail and deepness of the carving of the dragon is dynamic and intricate the first thing that points to the above average quality. This was noted above by others as well on the message board. The carving of the water waves is also good enough to produce the effect of obscuring parts of the dragon's body indicating that has just about to emerged from the "monster" wave to wreak havoc. Generally speaking there is master work from all time periods but the overall quality of pieces from the late Edo Period is fairly poor compared to earlier times in the Edo Period. You can get an idea of this by looking at many tsuba and start understand the characteristics that aid in determining their age. Having books are also helpful. A more detail discussion is best left to another thread as it is a complex topic. Here is an example of a late Edo period masterpiece produced right at the end of the Edo Period (circa 1855): http://kodogunosekai.com/.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

 

Edit: Fix a funny typo between the words carving and craving.

[Henry Wilson]

Don't want to be a party pooper, and with all due respect to the tsuba and especially the members of this discussion... but I don't think the quality of the tsuba is that good. It is a good honest tsuba but the metal, the theme the workmanship, all to me suggest a mediocre Edo piece.

 

Here are my opinions:

The metal seems of a good colour but it lacks any "activity". It is basically boring. Maybe it is easy to carve as there are no hard lumpy bits that gives the plate depth.

It took me a while to find the critters face and to me it doesn't look scary, it looks stoned....

The bottom of the seppa dai back and front are badly cut.

The rim looks unfinished and I doubt a rim cover was fitted as the tsuba is too thick and the rim would have problems adhesing to the carving around the edge.

The mei is nicely cut I suppose and the only eye catching detail of the tsuba is the way that "puff the magic dragon" is worked into the hitsu ana.

 

Good quality stands out. It can be hard to detect at the beginning but when you see and remember lots of tsuba and then start seeing the same sort of thing again, the brain starts to naturally and intuitive notice quality and you realise the piece has a little something extra AKA quality.

 

Just my thoughts. Peace, love, respect and by all means

[Soshin]

Don't want to be a party pooper, and with all due respect to the tsuba and especially the members of this discussion... but I don't think the quality of the tsuba is that good. It is a good honest tsuba but the metal, the theme the workmanship, all to me suggest a mediocre Edo piece.

 

Here are my opinions:

The metal seems of a good colour but it lacks any "activity". It is basically boring. Maybe it is easy to carve as there are no hard lumpy bits that gives the plate depth.

It took me a while to find the critters face and to me it doesn't look scary, it looks stoned....

The bottom of the seppa dai back and front are badly cut.

The rim looks unfinished and I doubt a rim cover was fitted as the tsuba is too thick and the rim would have problems adhesing to the carving around the edge.

The mei is nicely cut I suppose and the only eye catching detail of the tsuba is the way that "puff the magic dragon" is worked into the hitsu ana.

 

I don't think you can get that level of quality craving with such a heterogeneous iron displaying much activity. As to the other points I think Henry is correct. The craving quality is good but the rim is poorly done and well as the shape of the seppa-dai. Both of these things I feel you often seen in late Edo pieces. I do need to restate my opinion and that is overall the tsuba is good due the quality of the cravings but in some respects the tsuba is a "mixed bag" and the quality not consistent. Another possibly is that the tsuba was not made by a professional tsubako but someone who could just do very detail cravings. This would explain the inconsistency in the quality of the tsuba. Just my two cents again.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Ford Hallam]

I would agree with Henry also, especially his comment regarding

 

This is a fairly decent piece of work but I wouldn't get excited about it being of above average. In my estimation I'd actually place it slightly below average generic work that is common in genuine Kinai work, for example.

 

Depth of carving is not an indicator of quality in my opinion. Crispness, certainly can be but that can be achieved on very subtle works that appear to be almost flat. The actual carving, while expressive and bold is, to my eye, a little crude.

 

However, with regard to the material I agree with David. I don't agree that one would expect to see any real activity in the steel of extensively carved work, even of the highest quality. The two qualities are in many respects mutually exclusive.

 

I'll see if I can dig out some examples of what a very fine example of a carved steel dragon tsuba can look like. That's the best way to appreciate the difference.

 

regards,

 

fh

[Pete Klein]

David -- perhaps once you've recovered from your beer you can go back and change all of those 'craving'(s) to 'carving'(s)...

 

Or, on second thought, just leave it as is -- it's really funny as all Hell!

[Soshin]

Hi Peter,

 

The attack from the typo from hell. This drinking and the Nihonto message board don't mix well. On a positive note we are talking about Tosogu and no deadly antique weapons are involved.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[FlorianB]

Thank You all for Your opinions.

 

At least I’m not disappointed because as I mentioned before this tsuba is just of secondary interest for me. It is part of a koshirae stored away for about ten years and was „rediscovered“ recently while searching for a carving work.

Just because of the extensive signature and my uncertainty of the quality I thought it could be an interesting piece for discussion.

 

Now I’m wiser - and that’s what I gained for!

 

Greetings,

Florian

[Pete Klein]

A little ditty for Henry-san:

 

Puff, the magic tsuba,

lived by the sea,

and frolicked in the Edo mist,

in that land of har-mon-eeeee.

Puff, the magic tsuba,

rust -ed away,

and now what's left is on page one,

of USA's E-Baaaaay!

 

Bwa - ha - ha - ha...

[Henry Wilson]

:D

[Henry Wilson]

I don't think you can get that level of quality craving with such a heterogeneous iron displaying much activity.

 

As you know there are quite a few schools (Akasaka, Owari sukashi etc) that have a lot of cut-outs. The early work in particular has very well worked and finely forged metal. Just because a tsuba plate has alot of work on it does not mean that it has be homogenous in appearance. Just some additional thoughts.

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

I was referring to low relief carving specifically seen on the tsuba discussed in the tread and was not really thinking of sukashi (i.e. positive openwork) you would see in the Owari Sukashi and Akasaka schools. Some of the carving skill of the early generations of Kinai school of Echizen have wonderful detail and skill on iron that is compared to Owari Sukashi and Akasaka school relatively homogeneous in character.

 

Here is a good Ko-Kinai Example I like:

http://www.users.on.net/~coxm/kinai%20dragon%20gold%20ana.jpg

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Henry Wilson]

I agree with you there David. My post above was pointing out that heavily carved / cut plate can also have very good and well worked metal, which was in response to you stating:

 

"I don't think you can get that level of quality craving (carving) with such a heterogeneous iron displaying much activity".

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

I should have better qualified and develop the statement and not just make a drastic generalization in my original post.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.