Army and Naval Sword Help

[A6jock]

I would like comments on if the two swords pictured seem correct and as described below:

 

 

Katana guntou fittings

Maker: Mumei

Description: Mumei, gunto mounted osuriage koto.

Koto blade is most likely a family blade.

Sugaha hamon, ko-maru agari boshi.

Fittings: Tsuba and seppa do not have complete matching numbers.

 

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Katana Kaiguntou

Maker: Mumei

Description: Mumei, kaigunto mounted Showa period sword. Koto blade is most likely a family blade. The two mekugi-ana indicate that this blade may have been mounted in other fittings at one time.

Subtle gunome hamon, ko-maru boshi.

 

 

Regards

 

Robert

[paulb]

Robert,

It is difficult bordering on the impossible to make much of a judgement based on these images.

Sword no 1 the Gunto, The nakago has been very badly reshaped, "cleaned" or whatever making it impossible to put any guess as to age or origin. From what can be seen of the blade it looks to be an authentic pre war piece. I cant tell whether koto, shinto or otherwise.

Mounts look ok

 

Sword no 2 Kaigunto again looks to be an authentic Japanes blade . The nakago looks a little strange but not as bad as the first. If I had to guess I would say shinto rather than koto, but that has more to do with feeling than observation.

I do like the koshirae which look to be good quality naval mounts and the foul weather cover is not a common thing (at least I have never seen one on sale)

 

Dont know if this helps but to offer more wuld require better detailed images.

Regards

Paul

[SwordGuyJoe]

I would speculate that based on the sori, your shin gunto is shinto and not koto and agree with Paul on the the shinto age as well. An in hand inspection would be required to make a better guess, but based on these pics I think it'll be difficult to get more.

[A6jock]

Gentlemen

 

Much appreciated, I can send more pictures. Can you help me on value.

 

These two swords are represented as modified in the 1930s from older family blades etc.

 

Many Thanks

[A6jock]

Second loop ?

[Mark]

i think if you are not comfortable with the price/value then best to pass and find something else. Hard for us to get in the middle of your transaction especially when we have no idea of the prices/return policy/details etc. If you are not excited to own these based on your experince level best to keep looking, there are plenty of swords available

[george trotter]

Robert,

not sure what "Second loop?" means...if it is a question as to "why is there a second loop" then this might help. The first revision of gunto mountings after the Meiji/Taisho period sabre type fittings was in the year Koki 2594 (1934) when they were changed to the more traditional tachi type fittings...so yours is one of these, two loops, known as a Type 94 mounting. In Koki 2598 (1938) the second loop was dispensed with and the designation was changed to Type 98.

The Navy mounts were also changed to the tachi type in 1937, but the navy designation is simply Type Tachi.

George.

[chrisf]

Am I the only one who thinks it odd that both swords have nakago that have been altered in similar fashion and both with two mekugiana also in similar positions.The hamon looks speculative and both nakago have a strange patina and in my view look as though they have possibly been altered recently.

Without close-up views of hamon and hada it's impossible to date either blade from sugata alone,it's entirely possible that they are gunto blades that have been 'spoodled' to look like old blades.

Why?Because the original blades may have sold without the military koshirae to avoid any connection with the wartime period and remounted in 'samurai' koshirae the blades would become more commercial.

Sorry but they don't look right to me.

[SwordGuyJoe]

If you here hoof beats, think horse and not zebra. A lot of speculation here in your post and while admittedly the pictures leave a lot to the imagination, there is nothing that blatantly screams fake/less than what they are being reported as. I think this board as a whole (myself included) quickly leap to the conclusion that every sword is gimei or showato etc, when what it truly needed is an in hand inspection of the blade itself.

[chrisf]

Joe,I totally agree with you but have to say that my post is no more speculative than those which consider the blades to be koto/shinto and you cannot deny a) that both nakago look odd and b) that selling blades OUT of military koshirae is very commonplace.

Also consider this;why is the patina on the second suspension ring so different?Two hanger shingunto are relatively rare,I have seen ordinary gunto with a second wedged on to make it look like a two hanger sword and as they are a friction fit it's not rocket science to do it.

And think again about the hoof beats Joe,if you're in Africa the chances are it's NOT horses!

[SwordGuyJoe]

Good points.

[A6jock]

Gentlemen

 

Many Thanks, and I thought SS Daggers were tough....

 

If there is a nice clean 100% Army and Naval for sale out there with older blades I would like to know.

 

Regards & Thanks

 

A6jock@Yahoo.com

[Mark]

I sold a couple of nice ones at the Chicago show. It is much easier to buy/sell when you have it in hand and can examine it and even ask opinions of others who are in the room. I an hesitant to offer swords on line as it is so hard to show exactly what it looks like. German daggers are "standard" and you need to verify if genuine and condition, but all handmade blades are different, there is no standard so it is a challenge. Do you travel to any big military swords (SOS or MAX etc)? If so you can arrange to see some nice swords in hand

[SwordGuyJoe]

I would suggest the SOS, since the MAX has been a real downer for swords (with exception of a handful of vendors) the past two years. I traveled from Minneapolis (area) to Pittsburg (area) and I I got was a lousy WWII vintage saki bottle. I am thinking of making a t-shirt.