If you would...

[Rivkin]

As a photographer I often wondered, If one could request 10 high resolution well made photographs of any swords, any smiths you named, what would it be?

My own short list of undershot smiths was:

 

Sanjo

Tomonari

Awataguchi Hisakuni

Bungo Yukihira

O-Sa

Masamune

Umeta Myoju

 

Eventually I shot them all but it has been a Challenge. And both Yukihira and O-Sa images did not turn out well, and I don't know if I get another chance.

 

Edited Monday at 01:38 PM by Rivkin

[eternal_newbie]

In addition to yours:

 

Norishige - the most interesting hada in the business; having a very high resolution photograph of the various activities in the ji and ha would be great study material.

Hankei - famous as being one of the post-Koto smiths who got closest to Norishige, while also simultaneously falling short and ending up with his own unique style of hada instead. Comparing and contrasting this high res photo with the previous one of Norishige would be quite a fun little exercise.

Kotetsu - most of the Kotetsus we see on the open market are somewhat uninspiring, because the really good ones stay in Japan, often with secretive owners and selling in closed, private negotiations. A high-res photo of a top-class Kotetsu (or more) would help Westerners understand the hype that leads him to being one of the four highest-priced makers in Japan.

 

[Lewis B]

Go yoshihiro from his early Yamato influenced phase. Of the 2 blades extant 1 is saiha (Kai-no-Kuni Go). I would love to see high rez images of the Kabuto-Giri Go with an Ichi-mai boshi that’s in its original condition. 
If it wasn’t for Andrew we wouldn’t have some nice images of his Soshuden period when he completely embraced the tradition. 
Early Tametsugu from his younger Etchu/Echizen period when he was working directly with Norishige and incorporating some of Go's swordmaking style. 

Nice images of Fukuoka Ichimonji blades are sorely missing. These need a range of different light sources and photography styles to fully capture. We only get an inkling of their true beauty eg Yamatorige.

 

Some specific blades I would like to see in high Rez glory are the Dojigiri Yasutsuna, 

Edited Monday at 03:59 PM by Lewis B

[CSM101]

A tachi by Ko-Bizen Muneyoshi. A perfect combination of hada and utsuri. A tanrto by Rai Kunimitsu with a triple nie utsuri. And the Yukimitsu tanto from the Compton collection.

 

 

And of course Norishige.

[MassiveMoonHeh]

It is something I constantly think about.

 

We need better photos of all the Kokuho, Nihon San Saku, Juyo Bunkazai, Juyo Bijutsuhin, Tokubetsu Juyo, Juyo & Meitbusu blades.

 

Whilst the NBTHK scans are fine for academic purposes. In this day and age a proper collection of photos of the 14600+ important & higher swords should become a priority for a country that makes the four largest camera brands on the planet.

 

Why has this project not already happened and why is there not a standard book for sword photography and videography.

 

It does feel like a massive ball has been dropped with this.

 

Just crazy.

[Lewis B]

1 minute ago, MassiveMoonHeh said:

It is something I constantly think about.

 

We need better photos of all the Kokuho, Nihon San Saku, Juyo Bunkazai, Juyo Bijutsuhin, Tokubetsu Juyo and Juyo blades & Meitbusu blades.

 

Whilst the NBTHK scans are fine for academic purposes. In this day and age a proper collection of photos of the 14600+ important & higher swords should become a priority for a country that makes the four largest camera brands on the planet.

 

Why has this project not already happened and why is there not a standard book for sword photography and videography.

 

It does feel like a massive ball has been dropped with this.

 

Just crazy.

Yes, it could be Japan's sequencing-the-genome moment. After all, who else is in a position to take on such a project. 

 

You only have to see the quality of forensic video of blades to understand what could be achieved. I'm sure it could be quite easy to automate using robotic cameras so requiring minimal human intervention.

Edited Monday at 04:45 PM by Lewis B

[nulldevice]

4 minutes ago, MassiveMoonHeh said:

It is something I constantly think about.

 

We need better photos of all the Kokuho, Nihon San Saku, Juyo Bunkazai, Juyo Bijutsuhin, Tokubetsu Juyo and Juyo blades & Meitbusu blades.

 

Whilst the NBTHK scans are fine for academic purposes. In this day and age a proper collection of photos of the 14600+ important & higher swords should become a priority for a country that makes the four largest camera brands on the planet.

 

Why has this project not already happened and why is there not a standard book for sword photography and videography.

 

It does feel like a massive ball has been dropped with this.

 

Just crazy.

 

I've got the camera and the lenses, just work on getting me access to all of the Kokuho, JuBun, Gyobutsu, and JuBi pieces and I suppose I'll volunteer as tribute 

[eternal_newbie]

2 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Go yoshihiro from his early Yamato influenced phase. Of the 2 blades extant 1 is saiha (Kai-no-Kuni Go). I would love to see high rez images of the Kabuto-Giri Go with an Ichi-mai boshi that’s in its original condition. 
If it wasn’t for Andrew we wouldn’t have some nice images of his Soshuden period when he completely embraced the tradition

 

Even with high-res photography, it's amazing how much detail gets missed with the standard flat profile format usually seen in museum catalogs. For example, here's a video of a Go that Darcy Brockbank once remarked "of the various Go I have had the luck to encounter in my life, this one is the best. It exhibits all of the features of this smith and has no weaknesses."

 

I tried to find a proper link to it on Youtube/the Wayback Machine but was unable to, so I'm uploading my own archived copy here. I did find some other photographs and another video (headphone warning) of the same sword on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/473437089877345/posts/717706858783699/ 

 

[Lewis B]

20 minutes ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

Even with high-res photography, it's amazing how much detail gets missed with the standard flat profile format usually seen in museum catalogs. For example, here's a video of a Go that Darcy Brockbank once remarked "of the various Go I have had the luck to encounter in my life, this one is the best. It exhibits all of the features of this smith and has no weaknesses."

 

I tried to find a proper link to it on Youtube/the Wayback Machine but was unable to, so I'm uploading my own archived copy here. I did find some other photographs and another video (headphone warning) of the same sword on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/473437089877345/posts/717706858783699/ 

 

Ah Yuri Emelin's Go. A superb blade and in excellent condition. 

[buchtas]

4 hours ago, Rivkin said:

As a photographer I often wondered, If one could request 10 high resolution well made photographs of any swords, any smiths you named, what would it be?

My own short list of undershot smiths was:

 

Sanjo

Tomonari

Awataguchi Hisakuni

Bungo Yukihira

O-Sa

Masamune

Umeta Myoju

 

Eventually I shot them all but it has been a Challenge. And both Yukihira and O-Sa images did not turn out well, and I don't know if I get another chance.

 

I would love to see more quality pictures, or even oshigata of the tanba no kami yoshimichi blades with its "sudareba" hamon i believe it is called? I dont know why but I fell in love with those, I have a few pictures of them downloaded to admire. Would love to get a blade for my self one day but high quality photos would be also amazing.

[John C]

My tastes are simpler, albeit impossible: just two shots of each of my swords. One with the smith making it and one just after original polish.

 

John C.

[Takezo]

Umetada is of interest to me since he had so few works and was such a good metal worker and trained Tadayoshi 1 and others. That Go is otherworldly though. I have seen Hiromitsu or even some Ichimonji get close to this, but not that level.

[nulldevice]

2 hours ago, John C said:

My tastes are simpler, albeit impossible: just two shots of each of my swords. One with the smith making it and one just after original polish.

 

John C.

 

My dumb physics brain: 

 

"Just find some distant place 700 lightyears away to look at the exact place on Earth where it was forged and then send you the video recording."

 

That might be easier than convincing the various Japanese authorities, museums, and private collection to let a gaijin with a camera photograph Kokuho swords in their current state!

[Toki]

I would absolutely love close ups of Onimaru Kunitsuna. Probably my favorite blade

[MassiveMoonHeh]

7 hours ago, MassiveMoonHeh said:

a country that makes the four largest camera brands on the planet.

I stand corrected - Japan is home to SIX of the largest camera brands in the world. Number seven is Leica from Germany - @Lewis B can you organise? Anyone know anyone in Sweden to get in touch with Hasselblad? 

[Nobody]

Of course, you know this, right?

 

e-Museum

National Treasures & Important Cultural Properties of National Institutes for Cultural Heritage, Japan

e-Museum - Swords

 

[MassiveMoonHeh]

6 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

Even with high-res photography, it's amazing how much detail gets missed with the standard flat profile format usually seen in museum catalogs. For example, here's a video of a Go that Darcy Brockbank once remarked "of the various Go I have had the luck to encounter in my life, this one is the best. It exhibits all of the features of this smith and has no weaknesses."

 

I tried to find a proper link to it on Youtube/the Wayback Machine but was unable to, so I'm uploading my own archived copy here. I did find some other photographs and another video (headphone warning) of the same sword on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/473437089877345/posts/717706858783699/ 

 

Ah, Juyo Token 15 was a special shinsa. Four, yes you read right, four Gō in one shinsa, none from the same owner, just insane! This is the third on the list.

 

They say the swords have a soul and so - apparently Ghosts like to congregate.

 

As I understand it Darcy was stuck in Japan during Covid (I love that stuck - could think of worse places to get stuck.) Any way it apparently allowed him time to do some digging and he found this blade. Because of Covid he apparently also did not have his entire camera setup hence the hand held video. I think he did a great job without his camera kit, it is probably up there with my favourite videos/photos - this blade is just sublime. 

 

Interesting to note that none of the four Gō blades from Shinsa 15 have as yet been elevated to JokuJu. I would have thought this blade with it's provenance and quality would be a prime candidate? Even has an almost ichimai (Ichimai on the ura) which is generally considered a must have. The only thing the NBTHK do not mention in the Setsumei is a clear and bright Nioi Guchi and that ultimately is more of a gate keeper for TokuJu Gō blades, even more so than Ichimai.

 

But just wow - makes my case for better photos and videos, they are desperately needed.

 

Can you imagine getting to see something similar for the TokuJu Gō blades? 

[nulldevice]

27 minutes ago, MassiveMoonHeh said:

I stand corrected - Japan is home to SIX of the largest camera brands in the world. Number seven is Leica from Germany - @Lewis B can you organise? Anyone know anyone in Sweden to get in touch with Hasselblad? 

 

Only if its a medium format Hasselblad. The Lunar, Stellar, and HV cameras were a disgrace to the photography community.

 

As a sort of derailing thought, if Go died at 27 and wasn't making swords for very long, have we already reached the point where we've surpassed the realistic number of blades he could've produced as an individual smith that have been attributed to him? There are deeper discussions to be had on students, daisaku blades, and "forge mates" who may have been all working together, but I've wondered as new Go come about and appear in Juyo and TJ shinsa, how many existing Go aren't actually made by his hand? Even smiths with big schools and forges and with long active periods are now sitting at 200 or 300+ blades attributed to them with more and more appearing each year. 

 

I would love to see the NBTHK lead the charge as they have the best access to the most amount of fresh blades coming in each year hoping for Juyo and the elusive Toku Ju status in capturing higher quality and higher resolution images of these swords. Especially with the passing fees for Juyo Shinsa being quite a big chunk of change, a highly optimized setup for photography could be created where more than just sugata and nakago pictures could be captured. 

 

Even the TNM link posted above will have some very high resolution TIFF files for many of the JuBun and Kokuho blades, but these again are always just sugata pictures where sometimes the hada can be seen clearly as well depending on the smith. There are never any hamon shots that clearly show all of the hataraki, utsuri, and boshi that are key points in sword appreciation and kantei. 

[eternal_newbie]

5 hours ago, nulldevice said:

As a sort of derailing thought, if Go died at 27 and wasn't making swords for very long, have we already reached the point where we've surpassed the realistic number of blades he could've produced as an individual smith that have been attributed to him? There are deeper discussions to be had on students, daisaku blades, and "forge mates" who may have been all working together, but I've wondered as new Go come about and appear in Juyo and TJ shinsa, how many existing Go aren't actually made by his hand?

 

There are some scholars who think that the story of Go dying young was essentially a marketing ploy to make his works seem rarer and more desirable (personally, I don't think there's enough evidence to back this theory... yet). It's also worth noting that an attribution of Go doesn't necessarily mean the NBTHK believes the blade to be made by Go – just that it's the best answer they have, given the information at hand. This is especially the case for this smith since there are no (authenticated) signed works. I do believe it's likely that some of the works attributed to him are superlative works by Tametsugu, or Norishige working in a slightly different style than his norm (and vice versa).

[MassiveMoonHeh]

5 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

It's also worth noting that an attribution of Go doesn't necessarily mean the NBTHK believes the blade to be made by Go – just that it's the best answer they have, given the information at hand.

Hmm. This is a rather strong statement bud and raises some concerns for me.

 

As you know I have delved deep into Gō recently.

 

To me your statement here does two things;

 

1. Belittle's the status of Gō authenticated blades, which can upset quite a few people especially the owners of said very expensive blades - which I am pretty sure is not your intent.

 

2. Suggests the NBTHK has allocated blades to Gō that they do not believe were made by Gō. This appears to be a rather harsh criticism of the NBTHK's authentication process and authority to authenticate, something that without any evidence I think they would quite rightly be quite upset about and I am sure would adamantly defend if need be - again I am pretty sure is not what you meant.

 

I would suggest it is probably better worded to say that Gō like other smiths has specific characteristics and being without a definite signature if the sword matches these defined characteristics then the NBTHK will determine it to be a Gō. 

 

Some of these characteristics by the way that define a Gō, that we casually list, are in fact some of the hardest characteristics to pull off, that even other great smiths (Masamune included) just could not match Gō for quality - such as a bright and clear nioi guchi and ichimai boshi.

 

It is for this reason that Gō (not Masamune) was imitated more than any other Soshū smith - Honma called it the "modern look" and it is for this reason that Gō is so prized.

 

It has been alluded to a few times in this forum without evidence that perhaps there are NBTHK authenticated Gō blades that were made by someone else if not for an incorrect authentication then perhaps through trickery or the like to get that authentication. 

 

I just want to point out that, whilst all things are possible, it is worth noting that no signed sword by Tametsugu, Norishige or any shinto imitator, let alone modern smith has ever shown the same quality of a Gō blade. Kotetsu is said to have got the closest but even he fell short and it is not me saying that but Honma Junji, founder of the NBTHK and one of the original assessors who helped authenticate a staggering 46 of the Juyo and above Gō blades all the way through to Shinsa 37 as an authenticator up until 1987, and as an advisor until his death in 1991. It is worth noting of these 46 blades, 22 were blades without provenance.

 

Since he passed only 11 Gō Juyo and above blades have been authenticated in the last 34 years by the NBTHK out of the now 57 total Juyo and above blades. Of the eleven, five of these blades came with hon'ami provenance and six came with no provenance. Of the six with with no provenance five had a bright and clear nioi guchi, three had an ichimai boshi and two were deeply tempered. Overall the NBTHK kept to the Gō script and I cannot see any reason to question their authentication without valid justification.

 

We can question some decisions sure. But overall from recent Shinsa numbers I would say the NBTHK have done their job and even appear to be tightening the process of authentication overall.

 

Whilst we can ask questions about the number of blades specific to Gō's life and death (it is valid), let's not start muddying the good name of the smith, his blades or the NBTHK on speculation or without any valid reason to do so.

 

If you do however have some valid information about a Gō blade that you know to be by another smith then it is worth mentioning the blade for discussion in private or in the public forum.

 

Otherwise, I would prefer to quash any false rumours as they have a nasty habit of festering.

 

We are all here as enthusiasts who are keen to learn.

 

If there is anything you disagree with please feel free point them out. I am also learning and make mistakes.

[eternal_newbie]

Well that'll teach me for venturing an opinion where the real experts can see it... won't happen again, I promise

[Nihonto student]

The thing about studying Kamakura/Nanboku-chō periods is that, beyond their works, the figures involved are essentially all ghosts... there are only assumptions, speculations, and romanticized tales regarding them and  their lives, but nothing concrete. It seems absurd in itself not to have definite birth and death dates for the one considered the greatest of all time...

This lack of certainty naturally leads to thoughts of "conspiracies" concocted to fill the gaps, though these too remain speculation... just frustrating....

 

As for the topic, it is impossible to choose for me, though I have long been searching (Unsuccessfully) for high-resolution photos of the Heshikiri Hasebe.

[Lewis B]

What I find surprising for a smith who was so highly prized even during the early Edo period (when a lot of suriage were performed) that no Go signatures were preserved as gakumei or orikaeshimei. All we appear to have is a single signed tanto extant. 

[Hoshi]

Hi, 

 

Go is first and foremost a kiwame given to particular group of traits, chief amongst them the clarity of the work. As I explained previously, deviations from these canonical traits will lead to different judgements (e.g., violently turning Kaeri will bring the work to O-Sa, etc), a more stormy character will lead to Masamune, and so on and so forth. Go is simply the pinnacle of Soshu clarity, with ichimai, some masame, etc as reinforcing concordant traits. 

 

Whether the historical person called Go made the sword is not an answerable question. However this is besides the point, the NBHTK states in its attribution that according to tradition and study of the canonical traits present in the blade, then amongst all historical person, it is most likely this specific historical person who made it. Now everyone can assign a percentage to this. 

 

There is a Juyo Sanakage that went Tokuju to Go. This is normal, judgement can shift upon further study and as new evidence emerges. It was sold on Christies shortly after. 

 

That some blades are in between, for instance - 50% Go / 50% Masamune is also possibility. This is the case with the extraordinary video of the Go shown above. This blade, in the eyes of Tanobe sensei, would have gone to Masamune was it not for the widely hardened near ichimai boshi. Kojo says Go, and hence there is no "Den" attached. The old judges are respected and on masters with no signed works, their opinions is the basis of the system for modern attribution. This is not a problem at all. One must simply accept that such Kiwame are simply the best possible opinions given the current state of knowledge. The sword in itself is magnificent, and the monouchi is simply out of this world. I call it affectionately the "8 centimeters of God" Go, and all who have seen it agree with this statement. The stormy character of the activity, with plentiful inazuma dancing in and out of the ha, are however more distinctively Masamune than Go, specifically the hatsuboku-sansui manner for which he is revered. The way the ha widens gently towards the monouchi, and the near ichimai qualities of the boshi are canonically Go traits. 

 

https://nihontowatch.com/artists/go-yoshihiro-YOS1434

 

One can adopt various beliefs in the matter:

 

1. Hon'ami Conspiracist: Go is a fabrication by the early Hon'ami masters serving Hideyoshi. No signed works exist, and the Muromachi period text as not hard evidence. They took a guy without any works left and made him famous for some occult purposes. (Imamura Chogi famously held this theory for Masamune, which nobody serious really accepts today...)

2. Uncertainty embracers: Go most probably existed, along with other famed masters without signed work lefts, but one cannot deny the existence of a certain high-class cluster of Soshu works with co-occurring traits that represent the Apex of Soshu-den. It is perfectly reasonable that Go, the historical person, produced such works. 

3. Authority literalist: Attribution on top class mumei works pinpoint the historical figure with perfect accuracy. When there is a congruence between the best experts and bodies - Honma Junji, the old Hon'ami, Tanobe Sensei, and the NBHTK - then there can be no other possibility and it represents not simply the best theory, but absolute truth. 

 

And there is a vast continuum in between. One can be midway between 1 and 2, or between 2 and 3. Currently, I would rate myself at 2.3. 

 

This does not diminish the material value of the items themselves unless one collects because one insists on the "Authority literalist" stance in order to accept value. A masterpiece is a masterpiece, regardless of who made it. One must learn to separate the 'brand' from the 'work' from the 'historical person' - and while these are tightly interlinked and highly predictive of each other, the goal of study is to appreciate swords as Art Objects. I, for one, am completely comfortable when discussing my collection to state "Maybe Norishige, Maybe Go" - it's part of the beauty and mystery of the field. 

 

On collaboration

And finally, a point that is often overlooked in the field, is that these smiths worked with each other. Most if not all top-grade Soshu works are collaborations. This is true for every school. Nagamitsu worked with Mitsutada and Sanenaga, they made blades together. In every prime and late period Mitsutada, there is some Nagamitsu, and probably some Sanenaga. Just as a late Nagamitsu has some Kagemitsu in them, and Kagemitsu has some Kagemasa. Awataguchi Kunoyoshi contains some Awataguchi Yoshimitsu. Masamune, Norishige and Yukimitsu made swords together, alongside Go and Sadamune, albeit later. Sword making was a collaborative enterprise. 

 

There are phases in a collector's life. Remember that the position you hold today may change in the future. 

 

Hope this helps, 

 

Best,

 

Hoshi

[Rivkin]

I don't know why this turned into a place to discuss Go.

 

There is an issue that he uses two different styles which can be also be mixed to one extent or another, but so do many, Norishige has itame works, Sa has two types of jigane, etc. He is relatively well defined, plus-minus, whether his name was really Go and what exactly are the dates involved are probably unsolvable questions...

There are could have been two people - one with characteristic clear bright nioiguchi standing out against most Soshu works, and the other one to whom one would assign all other works, but its all both possible and elusive.

Interestingly enough he tends to be rather distinctive from Norishige, so what kind of influences and relationships were there, is not perfectly clear.

Its certainly not the hardest to find work photography-wise. Definitive O Sa can be much more of a challenge.

 

It is a popular work among "younger" collectors, including certain Russian circles, from crypto-guys who run around sanctions to outright war criminal crowd.

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:54 AM by Rivkin

[MassiveMoonHeh]

27 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

I don't know why this turned into a place to discuss Go.

Apologies. I saw Darcy's video - more photos please of good swords!

 

I am partial to Yoshifusa have you photographed any of his blades?

[MassiveMoonHeh]

47 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

It is a popular work among "younger" collectors, including certain Russian circles, from crypto-guys who run around sanctions to outright war criminal crowd.

From my research so far I have only found eight Juyo and above blades that live outside of Japan, 4x USA, 1x Switzerland, 1x Lithuania, 1x Singapore & 1x Australia. The remaining appear to reside in Japan with the majority living in Tokyo. On the whole most appear to be part of private family collections, foundations or museums. It may be popular among the "younger" collectors but I have not come across crypto-bros evading sanctions owning any or a blade in Russia, yet - but that would certainly make for an interesting story. I am also not sure the Touken Ranbu girls can afford them, just yet. Although I am told NitroPlus the company behind Touken Ranbu owns one and is actively purchasing quality blades.

 

Any way 'nuf now - photographs.

[Rivkin]

No problem, I am a grumpy old man who likes niche photo topics.

Collecting communities have many bubbles. Each believes whatever happens, it must be inside theirs.

One is always centered around 1-2 major dealers, and its always the most visible one. But then there is a museum bubble, which considers outsiders as dangerous uneducated idiots, old collectors bubble, people who pretend to be collectors bubble etc. etc. etc.. Sometimes they are in the same city and have no idea others exist. That's probably what contributed to stories like Go is as rare as ghost staying alive for so long. 

 

I had to check for Yoshifusa, I don't think I have him specifically. Sukezane, a few others. Soshu is relatively easy to photograph, and most Yamashiro is also ok, but unfortunately Bizen can be exceptionally difficult depending on polish etc., so with this level Bizen blades its basically booking the whole day for like 4, maximum 6.

 

P.S. Crypto-oriented fund managers who professionally erased much of their online presence and stopped soliciting outside investments in 2022. Yikes.

Edited Tuesday at 12:44 PM by Rivkin

[Jussi Ekholm]

Those who know me probably guessed this would be coming.  I am not one to have huge appreciation for fine swirls/twirls or other miniscule details in workmanship.

 

I would actually want to see some of the swords from shrines. It wouldn't really matter to me who the smith is, rather I would like to have the items photographed that I have not yet found so far in any publication. Especially the ōdachi and naginata would be the most important pieces for me. Still various shrines have all kinds of amazing items, so many awesome tachi for example are in the various shrine collections. I believe photography is always forbidden at the shrines and as I have collected the shrine books around Japan, the images in many of them are unfortunately not that good. Of course there are some very nice books that have very detailed pictures, and I am really happy they have been published.

 

The top smiths are always featured in every publication... I find myself often enjoying the relatively unknown smiths and there are many times I have been liking some of the works quite a bit and the items have seemed to be good quality in my eyes. 

[Rivkin]

Another question which I always pondered:

Is seeing a detailed photograph of work, hataraki, enough? Or you would prefer to see the overall image, or both are important? Do you get much information from overall images? Or you would rather say its important to see photos of works of the same maker to study the variation?

How many would you think then is enough? Two Go? Five?