Help with identification period of this Tsuba

[AkashiWhisky]

Hi all!
I purchased this tsuba a while ago and only now found time to ask a question: From which century is it? When I purchased it, it was dated to the Edo period, but no specific year, decade, or century was provided. There was also no certificate with it, nor does the tsuba have a maker’s mark.

I can see that it is forged, so I don’t think it’s fake, but I would really appreciate some help with identifying it, haha!

[Exclus1ve]

This is mumei owari sukashi tsuba of the Edo period, most likely the early Edo period.

[MauroP]

Agree on early Edo, but an Akasaka attribution could eventually fit even better.

 

[Spartancrest]

A very popular design and apparently done by both Owari and Akasaka schools- and copied.

 

http://www.nihonto.us/OWARI SUKASHI LS050.htm   

 

https://nihonto.art/products/tsuba-akasaka-den-tadashige   

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/18823/lot/5/an-unusually-large-akasaka-tsuba-late-17th-century/

  Please compare the tagane-ato [punch marks] on your tsuba compared to this almost identical piece suspected of being cast.

Certainly damaged.

Edited June 28 by Spartancrest
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[AkashiWhisky]

You guys are heroes, thank you so much! I am totally new to this hobby haha.

So, would it be reasonable to date it to somewhere between 1600 and 1750?

And based on your comments, I assume it could be a cast tsuba from either the Owari or Akasaka school?

In all honesty, I bought it for €250, so I don't know if that's actually a fair price or its true value.
 

Edited June 29 by AkashiWhisky
had a question

[MauroP]

4 hours ago, AkashiWhisky said:

So, would it be reasonable to date it to somewhere between 1600 and 1750?

And based on your comments, I assume it could be a cast tsuba from either the Owari or Akasaka school?

Let's bring a little order to this discussion:
- nobody here (well, almost nobody...) believes that iron tsuba were ever cast during the Edo period;
- Dale is simply suggesting that identifying a cast tsuba is a tricky business, and that finding one should be considered an unfortunate occurrence;
- if it turns out to be cast (in the Meiji period or later), then a price of one-tenth of what you paid is more than fair...

[Dan tsuba]

Hey AkashiWhiskey, welcome to the forum!

I don’t know. 

When I saw the picture you posted of the mimi (rim) of the tsuba I noticed possible mold marks and casting flaws (picture attached and circled in blue).

So, I was thinking that it was cast.  But I could also be wrong!

I figure that a lot of us (me also!) have gotten bit one time or another on a tsuba purchase not being what we expected.

Remember, before you buy a tsuba and if you have pictures of it, you can ask members of this forum for their opinions.

[AkashiWhisky]

15 hours ago, MauroP said:

Let's bring a little order to this discussion:
- nobody here (well, almost nobody...) believes that iron tsuba were ever cast during the Edo period;
- Dale is simply suggesting that identifying a cast tsuba is a tricky business, and that finding one should be considered an unfortunate occurrence;
- if it turns out to be cast (in the Meiji period or later), then a price of one-tenth of what you paid is more than fair...

Oke well that is clear and good to know. Thank you!

Now I took another look at the purchased Tsuba and I do see light "casting" lines within the piece. I assume forged looks completely different? For sure I can assume by now it is Meiji era or later. You mention one-tenth of the price.. I payed too much? 

For sure Mauro, I thank you!
 

9 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hey AkashiWhiskey, welcome to the forum!

I don’t know. 

When I saw the picture you posted of the mimi (rim) of the tsuba I noticed possible mold marks and casting flaws (picture attached and circled in blue).

So, I was thinking that it was cast.  But I could also be wrong!

I figure that a lot of us (me also!) have gotten bit one time or another on a tsuba purchase not being what we expected.

Remember, before you buy a tsuba and if you have pictures of it, you can ask members of this forum for their opinions.

As mentioned I took another look at it haha. For sure thank you as well for your warm welcome.

So to sum it up:
Piece is from Meiji era or later (cast)
Either the Owari or Akasaka school (copy)
Fairness of price (tbd) haha.
 

Edited June 29 by AkashiWhisky

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again AkashiWhiskey.

 

I have included a link to a thread on this forum that may assist you in buying your next tsuba-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/47395-tsuba-purchasing-for-new-collectors/#comment-492179

 

There are also several good books on the subject.

 

I would recommend that you PM (personal message) a member named Spartancrest (who has responded to your post on this thread).

 

He has written several books about tsuba, and one of his books was tsuba collecting for the beginner.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

 This image is the real clincher for showing it is cast, these are not layered seams and there are even tiny nodules in the "cut out" areas. Still from the surface it looks the part and may have been re-worked to get the fine line [kebori] details on the myoga and flowers.

 

Welcome to the forum R (?)  PS. My first tsuba were much less attractive!  

[AkashiWhisky]

First of all thank you everyone for helping out and welcoming me.
 

1 hour ago, Spartancrest said:

 This image is the real clincher for showing it is cast, these are not layered seams and there are even tiny nodules in the "cut out" areas. Still from the surface it looks the part and may have been re-worked to get the fine line [kebori] details on the myoga and flowers.

 

Welcome to the forum R (?)  PS. My first tsuba were much less attractive!  

Now my last question's was 250 a fair prices to pay for this? Also I assume my previous summary of:
Piece is from Meiji era or later (cast)
Either the Owari or Akasaka school (copy)
Is correct?

For sure I am curious what was your first tsuba, Dale?
Also yes R, I'm a man of privacy haha, but it is the first letter of my name!
Furthermore I can't wait to learn more!!

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, AkashiWhisky said:

 I am curious what was your first tsuba, Dale?

Ashamed to admit it but this thing from the 1940s was my first tsuba - the menuki though are real Edo period. Keep your eye out for these cast "Dragon in the Clouds" there are literally thousands of them!

  I "moved" this thing on years ago as a gift to my nephew! [Bad uncle!]

Edited June 30 by Spartancrest

[Bugyotsuji]

You wonder about whether you paid too much. In Japan this is sometimes referred to as Jugyo-ryo 授業料 or tuition fees.

= We pay to learn.

 

We turn around and see the path we have walked so far…

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, AkashiWhisky said:

Now my last question's was 250 a fair prices to pay for this?

I don't honestly think it was worth the $250 [was that dollars or euro?]  But for a genuine piece you would need to pay far more [unless you can stumble on an auction piece where the seller doesn't know what he is selling] 

 https://nihonto.art/products/tsuba-akasaka-den-tadashige one here selling for $433 USD  or  €380.00 - still no guarantee till it is examined in hand.

A papered example here https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/en/product/shousai/TSU-2825  but would you like to pay 200,000 yen or $1232.59 USD ? This one attributed as Kyo-sukashi.

Edited June 30 by Spartancrest
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[Kiko]

Is there an NMB thread called "Show us your first tsuba"? Because now that I’m reading your posts, I think it would probably be a liberating and enlightening place in more ways than one!