Correlation Between Gunto Mount and Gendaito Blade Quality

[Cookie_Monstah]

Greetings everyone,

 

Just like the title says I would like to draw on your feedback on a correlation between mount and blade quality. Are they usually consistent with one another? I've found some interesting swords in lieutenant and above ranked Type 94 and Type 98 mounts. I still get excited when I see them come out of the woodwork because you never know. I've been offered two o-suriage tachi blades so far. They are drying up state side.

 

All the best,

Khalid

 

[Matsunoki]

I have been very surprised to find several excellent gendaito….i mean really excellent …..in late war type 3 mounts. (Edited ….i got the Type wrong)
Not what I would expect….but I am very inexperienced on the Gunto scene. 
 

Edited June 24 by Matsunoki
Lack of knowledge🙂

[lonely panet]

iv found and seen many yasukuni-to in run of the mill type 98 mounts.  a kanenaga in plain gunto mounts etc

[PNSSHOGUN]

Good mounts can be an indicator of a decent blade, but never a guarantee. 

[eternal_newbie]

12 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Good mounts can be an indicator of a decent blade, but never a guarantee. 

 

Indeed, sometimes it's the mounts themselves that are what the collector was interested in, and they selected a junk blade to hold it all together rather than shell out for a custom tsunagi.

[Scogg]

I have encountered nice mounts with machined blades like zoheito 

[Scogg]

Often times, I do not associate the mounts with blade quality necessarily. I try to asses both individually from eachother.

That said, when I find a sword "in the wild" that has a really nice two piece habaki; I do get a little excited and tend to look a little closer. 

Exceptions to every rule.
-Sam

[Bruce Pennington]

The Rinji seishiki (Type 3, etc) is the only model that has a clear distinction in blades between the standard, light tan saya vs the custom saya with double release buttons.  You almost always find a gendaito in the custom Rinji fittings.

[Conway]

“Almost always” being the key words.  I believe Hamfish sold a star-stamped Kaneshige on NMB a few years ago in Type 3 koshirae with a steel saya. Sometimes, the Type 3 lacquered saya and tsuka ito can be found on late war showato, such as the example below:

 

But I do agree the Type 3 is the model where the fittings most closely correspond to blade quality. 

[jawob]

Hope this is relevant, what about mon on the tsuka and better blades? 

[Matsunoki]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but is there a “guide to Gunto mountings” anywhere on this forum?
Sorry for off topic but I’d like to learn a bit more.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

12 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Forgive my lack of knowledge but is there a “guide to Gunto mountings” anywhere on this forum?
Sorry for off topic but I’d like to learn a bit more.

 

Ohmura's site is the Premium spot for that: Military Swords of Imperial Japan

 

3 hours ago, Conway said:

I believe Hamfish sold a star-stamped Kaneshige on NMB a few years ago in Type 3 koshirae with a steel saya. Sometimes, the Type 3 lacquered saya and tsuka ito can be found on late war showato, such as the example below:

I also own an RJT gendaito in the steel saya.  These tend to be a darker, mid-level brown as opposed to the lighter tan.

A 1945 Kunitoshi

 

I did a survey of RS fittings, and of the 75 with RJT star blades, there were 15 in the mid-brown metal saya.  The rest were custom.

[Scogg]

Ohmura's website is a godsend; it's fabulous. Sometimes my computer decides to translate it a little funny, but otherwise it's an invaluable resource. 

Off of the web, my favorite publication about Military Swords of Japan is the following:
Dawson, Jim. Swords of Imperial Japan, 1868–1945. Cyclopedia ed. Newnan, Ga.: Stenger-Scott Publishing, 2007.

And for those who want to go even deeper, our very own Kiipu put this incredible bibliography together. Proved an invaluable resource while writing my Type 95 monograph:

 

[Marcin]

2 hours ago, jawob said:

Hope this is relevant, what about mon on the tsuka and better blades? 

Mon means nothing with all these fake chinese mon.

[Scogg]

I'm not sure the presence of a mon would suggest anything about the blade itself.

The reasoning behind my thinking, is that you often find mon on those Kyu Gunto parade/dress sabers, that have dull edge and artificial hamon. 

Best,
-Sam

[jawob]

Good point Sam, I had forgotten that dress swords have mon. Have seen quite a few older blades in Gunto fitting with mon.

[Scogg]

It’s interesting to think about. I believe it would have cost money to have a mon added to an officer’s gunto, so it’s definitely a nice bonus to find one on a set of fittings.

 

That said, I’ve seen mon on gunto with old blades as well as on Gendaito, and plenty of Showato. Because of that, I’m hesitant to use the mon as an indicator of blade quality. I do not know, but I wonder if it would cost and officer more to buy a brand new showato, or to have an older blade refitted. Someone else here might know or have a source for those $ details. 

 

Given the amount of customization available, it’s difficult to draw connections between the blade and any single component of the fittings. Compound all that with swapping and tampering post-war, it gets even messier. 

 

Extra things like Mon still do get me excited sometimes, but I usually try to remain objective and view each sword as a “unique individual”. 
 

Bruce’s example of the “type 3” contingency model is a good exception, where fittings and blade quality seem to show some correlation. 

All the best,

-Sam

 

[Marcin]

15 hours ago, Marcin said:

Mon means nothing with all these fake chinese mon.

Yeah I know that my answer can be scarce sometimes but I don't want to spam same pictures over and over again.

I went for some new research now.

So from my old post: crest for 60$ offered on ebay by chinese seller or even worse - reseller. 

Shop "Bobby" is closed now.

Current offers? Pops up right away - navy with mon x2 examples

and koshirae with mon looking like made for laido way after ww2 - have crest too link link

Sam as usual nailed it with referencing parade kyu gunto having mon, yet I remember hamish @lonely panet or Mr "h" was posting somewhere his examples with mon having nihonto blades.

So, We will meet peps defending even Kyu gunto as blades can be swapped.

Once again don't make purchase decisions with being over positive. With amount of obvious fixed koshirae coming with certified blades from best dealers it's better to assume worst option.

I hope that this is sufficient enough.

For something more - my currently favourite ebay offer: Minty type 3 lying at chinese fabric, no response after questions for nakago pics. 

Sarute at T3 was proven as shouldn't be attached. It can be great Nagamitsu looking at even choji...

 

 

Edited June 25 by Marcin