Right place to post

[petethe canadian]

Hi, I am new here and I thought I posted about my katana chest yesterday but I don't see the thread, quite possible, probable? I posted in the wrong section so I will ask here, I have an 1820 katana chest that I bought while in Japan, it is signed and dated and there is something mysterious about the chest so I'd really like to get some opinions on it and I want to make sure I post in the proper section.  added a couple of photos to show you what I am referring to. Thanks.I 

[John C]

1 hour ago, petethe canadian said:

something mysterious

Could you be more specific? The inscription or the branch decoration?

 

John C.

[petethe canadian]

Hi, I appreciate the reply. The actual mystery of this chest is in the interior, I just wanted to upload a couple of pics to make sure I am posting this in the correct section and since you didn't; tell me to move it; I will assume this is the proper section. The back has been translated but of course I am not sure it's correct but from what I've been told it is signed by Sugiyama Mohei who commissioned the chest/box. So now that I am reasonable certain this is the right section, here are a couple more photos...there are quite a few stains inside the chest, anybody want to opine on the stains seen here?

.

[Scogg]

Hi Pete, cool box!

 

This section is just fine. I am a moderator here, and I’m not sure what happened to your first post. Maybe it didn’t successfully post all the way? All I know is that I did not delete it. We typically only delete posts that are spam, offensive, or wildly off topic. Otherwise we just move them to the proper spot. 
 

Anyway, glad you were able to get it posted on the forum now. 
 

As far as those stained fingerprints on the interior of the box, my first thought would be the wood stain that’s on the exterior. Hard to be sure though.
 

Now you just got to find a sword for it . 

Best of luck and welcome to the forum,

-Sam 

[John C]

2 hours ago, petethe canadian said:

opine on the stains seen here

Unless recent, I would also guess the stain used on the box. Blood oxidizes and the fingerprints would turn a light brown or gray color over time.

 

John C.

[petethe canadian]

Two more photos of the stains that I believe to be blood, I can't say for sure they are Mohei's fingerprints and blood stains but I can't say they aren't. The chest is 206 years old, it passed through many hands before it got to me so who knows whose blood stains they are if they are indeed blood stains. Some folks have speculated that the stains are lacquer stains from the box but had I been the carpenter who made the box for a samurai I certainly would not have left my fingerprints on the piece, some have said hanko ink stains, could be but personally they look like the wrong colour to me to be that ink. In the right side photo here we can see where some of the wood on one end of the box where the tips of the blades were stored, perhaps Mohei acquired a different blade than he owned when he commissioned the box and needed to "make the new blade fit" so some of the wood was gouged out and it doesn't appear to be professionally done to me eye, appears to be quire rough, someone used a chisel or some other type of sharp object to gouge out enough wood for the fit. The opposite end of the box/chest shows where the pummel end of the katana was/were forced down and that created a different type of gouge which I will show photos of later. All very mysterious. I saw a LOT of old katana in my 22 years in Japan but never bought one, mostly because the ones I saw were crazy expensive and at some point historical katana were no longer permitted to leave Japan.  

 

 

 

 

[petethe canadian]

this is the opposite end of the chest where the pummel was stored, we can see a different kind of gouge, like the wood was compressed over decades where the katana pommel was lifted  from and replaced in the box it was a tight fit, whatever all this is it's a piece of samurai history and it fits nicely with my wife's ancestors who were samurai but they were archers, I found an old scroll in their storeroom that shows how to build, measure and use archery targets, I can post photos of that as well if anyone would like to see that. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:05 AM by petethe canadian

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Pete,

welcome to the NMB forum!

Depending on where the depression is in the box, it might also be from (or for) the TSUBA. If the KATANA BAKO was made from KIRI wood, this is easily done as it is quite soft. The pommel (not pummel) is the KASHIRA of a KATANA, and when stored horizontally, the KASHIRA would not touch the wood.

BUT in my experience, a sword was never put in the "naked" chest. Mostly it was padded with textile/fabric, and the sword was in its bag.   

Concerning the fingerprints, they could have some history but we would not know it. In case it was blood, you could have a DNA analysis done. Nothing too exciting in my opinion, especially if it is only wood stain.
 
Traditionally, the woodworker who made the chest would not have made the lacquer work.

[petethe canadian]

I changed the u to an o, pommel, domo.  Of course all of what I suggest is speculation as we can not ask Mohei himself, I saw and owned other katana bako and this is the only one I saw that has wood  that was gouged from the end where the tips of the blades were stored, both ends look different and my guess is because of the different ends of the katana. In some photos the ghosting from where the brackets were fastened on the bottom and sides that held the blades in place in the chest are visible, the wood is a lighter colour and there are holes where the nails once were. Most of the interior staining is at the end of the box where the tips of the blades rested, a slip of the hand while cleaning or replacing a katana is a possibility. I believe the 4 hinges that attach the top to the chest were added at some other time, probably not original to 1820 and who knows, could be whoever added the hinges cut themself, there are a number of possibilities for how the blood stains originated, but having lived in Japan I seriously doubt any carpenter or person who worked on the chest/box would have left any kind of staining behind, too sloppy, just doesn't fit the meticulous craftsmanship of the Japanese. But again, I could be wrong on all of this but I'm basing what I write on what I see with my own eyes. There is writing on just about every surface of the chest, it passed through many hands before mine, there are many possible explanations for the stains. Adds to the mystery.

Edited Wednesday at 01:24 AM by petethe canadian

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Why do you think this is a box for a sword rather than a box for something else ?

[Bugyotsuji]

Many katana-bako examples posted in the above thread. 
Wakizashi size box?

Any rests inside, or marks where they once might have been?

 

It seems unlikely that naked blades were stored in there. Surely they would have been in some kind of shirasaya or abura-saya. Speaking of which, preserving (camellia?) oil could be the origins of the stains.

The formal Koshiraé could have been stored in there too, slightly longer overall, accounting for the dent?

[petethe canadian]

visible in this photo are the ghosts of some of the brackets that held the blades in place along with the holes where the nails secured the brackets. Over the 206 years of its life many things could;d have happened, I wasn't there so I can't say for sure. There are many possible hypotheses regarding this chest/box and I'll probably never really know what happened with Mohei's chest, every square centimetre has a ding, dent, scratch, bump, bruise and/or chip, there is a lot of writing all over the piece and not all done by the same hand. This chest was used for something else I mean I am using it for something else, in 206 years I'm certain the chest was used for different purposes along the way, it's a fascinating piece, to me anyway.