Bizen Osafune Kiyomitsu dated Eiroku 5 / 1562 – full koshirae project and cost sanity check

[klee]

5 hours ago, RobDam said:

the more I look at your blade the more I like it I'd love to see more pictures once you get it

(the same when I look at mine tho )

 

 

 

Thank you @RobDam

 

I will most certainly take more photos.

 

I do love everything about it so I am excited. The jigane is beautiful with lots of activities.

 

The signature is beautifuly done as well 

 

[GreyVR]

I regret to say I missed some of your replies to me as (as I said) very tired. 

Your statement "I assume they are serious about Koshirae commissions" is very dangerous. Never assume across cultures/languages! Make sure you have an understanding. Apologize after for being difficult, (they will respect that you took the time to apologize) but go through the motions of being difficult. 

Will they do their best to give you quality workmanship? Yes. That is almost certainly true. Will they give you a checklist of things to make sure of? Almost certainly not, as they expect you to give them one.... and that if you wanted to make sure of X, you would mention it. 
IE, on the koshirae I commissioned there is no room for a kogata, and I'm a tad unhappy about it, as they never asked if I wanted one, and I never said.... I didn't know it was an option. They didn't give me a checklist of options, they expected me to give them one. I also have to make sure to tell them I wanted a wooden blade, as they didn't ask. 

That's why I say you need to make sure all your i-s are dotted and t-s are crossed. 

Don't be afraid to write to them now and ask about these things. In Japan, customer is king. The only time I ever saw Japanese getting rude and angry I was in a Japanese post office and the clerk was having a terrible time figuring out how to handle an international shipment... and the line was getting long and unruly. 

Is it too late? Depends on how far along the item is. It WILL be wonderful when you get it, but it will be much easier to make sure of this now then to learn about it six months later and need to send your sword BACK to Japan again to get a wooden blade of the tsuka reprofiled and rewrapped. 

Edited Thursday at 07:04 PM by GreyVR

[GreyVR]

Oh... when dealing with artists and artisans... of any culture.... this is something everyone needs to known when they commission something. 

I was trained as an artist. (I am not productive due to an injury and this is a great pain to me.... but...) How artists think should be of interest to those who commission them.... and we know KNOW... most of you can't SEE. You're all blind until we point out the details to you and half the time you still can't see it. As a result, we sometimes gloss over detail work if you do not demonstrate that you have an educated eye, but we will respect you more if you do.... because we know you will appreciate the detail and the time it took to include it.

My old cinematography professor always said "Camera side fill forever. NEVER KEY from the camera side. NEVER."

I found a piece he made with camera side key lighting. Asked what's up. "Because it was faster and the client was a moron, and I knew he couldn't tell the difference and the piece was going to bomb anyway because he wasn't funny even though he thought he was. He still owes me money actually." 

And the thing is, we're right about this. Most people are FREAKING BLIND and can't tell a square from a circle without it being pointed out to them. I've explained television refresh rate and how it effects the illusion of motion to people in stores and they tell me they can't see the difference in the edge of a moving object on the screen in front of them!  That kind of thing is soul killing. 

Develop the eye of a Connoisseur and take the time to show anyone you commission that you have it, that you do care about the detail, and they will be happy to go the extra mile for you, because they know you're going to get something out of it. (and will understand when they charge you a little more for those details.) 

[klee]

@RobDam

 

One of my long term goals is to collect a long blade from each smith from the main Kiyomitsu lineage.

 

There s obviously Gorozaemon ( Tenbun ) and Magoemon ( Eiroku ) but theres another smith in the Eisho era named Nomura Gorozaemon who is the master/father of the tenbun Gorozaemon. He is the only recorded Kiyomitsu smith active im the Eisho era  mostly signed  " Bishu Osafune.... " but I have yet to see a zokumyo or an NBTHK attribution to him

[RobDam]

1 hour ago, GreyVR said:

I regret to say I missed some of your replies to me as (as I said) very tired. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to provide such detailed advice.

I have asked them for a traditional tsuka shape, not too large, thick, or bulky, and well proportioned to the blade and fittings. I fully trust the craftsman’s judgment, but I also understand limits and challenges. Let's see what will be the result!

 

Also Thank you for the tsunagi advice! I've asked them about it too.

 

This is my first full koshirae project (and first blade, also) so my aim is to keep it simple, restrained, and coherent, without adding too many extra elements. I am mainly hoping for something respectful to the blade and traditionally balanced.

[RobDam]

2 hours ago, klee said:

The jigane is beautiful with lots of activities.

Beautiful pics 😍 thank you for sharing.

the jigane seems awesome and the geometry around the yokote/kissaki looks very crisp and elegant. Very appealing blade.

[RobDam]

50 minutes ago, klee said:

@RobDam

 

One of my long term goals is to collect a long blade from each smith from the main Kiyomitsu lineage.

Sounds like a plan! Looking forward to seeing your catches! For me a tachi possibly ubu from early muromachi would be my next goal, but I know pretty much nothing about tachi still studying 😅 also it looks like a bit less accessible as a category

Edited Thursday at 09:32 PM by RobDam

[klee]

@RobDam

 

An ubu tachi would be rare ( and pricey ) 

 

There are some early muromachi ubu tachi that appears every now and then

 

Here s one 

 

https://eirakudo.shop/673537

 

But things become very muddy when it comes to tachi vs katana in the early muromachi and hard to distinguish 

[Sukaira]

@RobDam I can share my Gorozaemon with you as well. This is 1537 in the full signature. I am also working on a koshirae for it. Next post is the fittings.

Edited Thursday at 09:47 PM by Sukaira

[Sukaira]

Goto tsuba and Nobuyoshi fuchikashira.

[Sukaira]

On display in a case I imported from Keisuke at https://en.katana-case-shi.com/shop - you should check him out if you are searching for a nice display. They are not cheap, but have incredible build quality and engineering features, like light absorbing backing, non-reflect glass, museum quality light rails etc.
 

Edited Thursday at 09:56 PM by Sukaira

[GreyVR]

1 hour ago, klee said:

One of my long term goals is to collect a long blade from each smith from the main Kiyomitsu lineage.

I'd be content to hold a genuine Muramasa demon sword.... just to see if it whispers for the blood of a Tokugawa. 

My first (and still favorite) nihonto feels like it has a mischievous spirit. Like it was waiting for me.... and it sometimes feels heavier than other times. 

No papers. No one else in the store even looked at it. Like it was waiting for me, or someone like me, to go home with. The tsuka looked like it had been chewed by a dog, (which perhaps it had....)But I knew they would have it repaired it for me if I commissioned it.... maybe the other shoppers didn't? And so what I think was the best sword in the shop was overlooked entirely on a busy day... Other short swords sold while I was there... but no one else even looked a this one. Waiting for me? All of that is just a feeling, but I did have that feeling...  and in the end that turned out to be the case since I bought it and treasure it. 

The old wrap, (some modern material,) went away and black silk came in. It did give me the chance to find out the menuki are signed! The Hamon (quite difficult to photo to it's full effect...) is like fire, with the lights rising up over a darker background. (Can anyone name this pattern? A choji I suspect, but I admit to ignorance in this, and would like to know if anyone can tell me. 

Notice on the second photo, the fuchi has been polished smooth by someone's thumb, as that's exactly where your thumb would sit if you were wearing it edge up and rubbing it with your hand wrapped around it... The blossom on the kozuka, which I believe is a plum blossom, is gold. Sadly, the other side has one remaining chopstick, with a single gold flower. I sometimes wonder if I could commission a replacement chopstick from a craftman, and someday I'll investigate the price... and likely reject it... or perhaps not. 

Edited Thursday at 10:12 PM by GreyVR

[eternal_newbie]

10 hours ago, GreyVR said:

My first (and still favorite) nihonto feels like it has a mischievous spirit. Like it was waiting for me.... and it sometimes feels heavier than other times. 

 

Some say that the sword finds the owner, and not the other way around...

[RobDam]

17 hours ago, GreyVR said:

That's why I say you need to make sure all your i-s are dotted and t-s are crossed

So they answered (about the tsuka and tsunagi):

"We ordered Tsunagi for the Koshirae as well. They are specialized in making Koshirae with Traditional way. So we do not worry about it. They will make the best, always."

 

Just FYI

 

[RobDam]

15 hours ago, Sukaira said:

On display in a case I imported from Keisuke at https://en.katana-case-shi.com/shop - you should check him out if you are searching for a nice display. They are not cheap, but have incredible build quality and engineering features, like light absorbing backing, non-reflect glass, museum quality light rails etc.
 

 

These cases are amazing

Thank you!

Edited yesterday at 01:09 PM by RobDam

[Prewar70]

Sukaira, that is a beautiful sword in every way.  Absolutely lovely.