What exactly is a netsuke?

[watsonmil]

Dear John,

      I have owned only a couple of Chinese Toggles,  therefore I am far from being an expert.  Having provide that caveat,  I.  Generally Toggles are noticeably smaller than Netsuke.  2.  The hole,  if there is one is much smaller and goes clean through the body of the toggle.  3.  Quite often Toggles use a central area of the body as one would expect to see on a clothing button.  Toggles were made of a huge variety of materials from wood to elaborately carved Jade depending upon the status of the wearer.  4.  Toggles are generally quite boring to look at.  Unlike the majority of Netsuke,  they do not tell a story.  5.  They never appear ready to walk or fly off your palm.  6.  You rarely if ever find humor displayed in a Chinese Toggle.   John,  I am sure there are other clues to Toggle verses Netsuke that a more learned person could describe,  but if you keep these 6, actually 7 points in mind,  you are highly unlikely to make an error.   Through my years of studying both Japanese and Chinese Art,  I much prefer the Japanese Netsuke.   I once thought I'd like to collect Chinese Jades,  but given the fact that I personally found Chinese Art to be rather boring and AGAIN the fact that so many FAKES are being produced even going so far as for the Chinese to import British Columbia, CANADA  Jade as our Jade is a more even and vibrant green and the Chinese love the color green.

    I hope my answer is satisfactory.

Thank you, ... Ron

[John C]

Thank you, Ron. This gives me a good reference for distinguishing between the two.

 

John C.

[PietroParis]

Ronald Watson you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Where do I start unraveling your ball of nonsense?  Bernard Hurtig's "International Netsuke Collectors Society" started in 1972 and closed shop around 1985. An unrelated collectors group, "Netsuke Kenkyukai", started in 1980 and became the "International Netsuke Society" in 1996. The yearly $125 fee of the INS covers four issues of the journal, which may or may not be considered a good deal, but most importantly it gives access to 46 years of back issues in electronic form. Genuine netsuke can be bought from dealers, from major auction houses (but not Sotheby's, which closed its Japanese art department in 2007, and even Christie's rarely sells netsuke nowadays), from cheaper local auctions, from flea markets, from other collectors, from Catawiki, and even from eBay. Collectors do not "shy away from buying netsuke" for fear of Chinese fakes:  a minimal education in the subject is sufficient to spot those fakes, which are comparable to the cast tsuba or fake gunto that are commonly seen in this forum. If you fear that you cannot distinguish them, just buy a few books first, as is advisable in all branches of collecting. Sophisticated forgeries of course also exist,  but those do not necessarily come from China (e.g., German fakers were prolific in the 1990s) and generally target the higher end of the market. The prices of collectible netsuke range from a few hundreds to, indeed, a few hundred thousands. Some collectors will be confined to low and mid-range pieces, others will be able to afford the best stuff. But all of the collectors I know are passionate about the subject, and many are also knowledgeable. Is this any different from what happens with Japanese swords?

[watsonmil]

Dear John,

      I have owned only a couple of Chinese Toggles,  therefore I am far from being an expert.  Having provide that caveat,  I.  Generally Toggles are noticeably smaller than Netsuke.  2.  The hole,  if there is one is much smaller and goes clean through the body of the toggle.  3.  Quite often Toggles use a central area of the body as one would expect to see on a clothing button.  Toggles were made of a huge variety of materials from wood to elaborately carved Jade depending upon the status of the wearer.  4.  Toggles are generally quite boring to look at.  Unlike the majority of Netsuke,  they do not tell a story.  5.  They never appear ready to walk or fly off your palm.  6.  You rarely if ever find humor displayed in a Chinese Toggle.   John,  I am sure there are other clues to Toggle verses Netsuke that a more learned person could describe,  but if you keep these 6, actually 7 points in mind,  you are highly unlikely to make an error.   Through my years of studying both Japanese and Chinese Art,  I much prefer the Japanese Netsuke.   I once thought I'd like to collect Chinese Jades,  but given the fact that I personally found Chinese Art to be rather boring and AGAIN the fact that so many FAKES are being produced even going so far as for the Chinese to import British Columbia, CANADA  Jade as our Jade is a more even and vibrant green and the Chinese love the color green.

    I hope my answer is satisfactory.

Thank you, ... Ron

[watsonmil]

John,  

    According to Pietro in France ...  I  " clearly do not know what I'm talking about ",  so do not rely on the information I provided.  There used to be respect on the NMB.   It is unfortunate that the NMB has deteriorated to the point I no longer care to post.   I can find better things to do than share my  "clearly flawed knowledge ".

Kind regards, ... Ron   

[Bugyotsuji]

Ron, these are simply two individuals who pop into the NMB and enjoy heated discussions. Many others are reading and learning from every post, while they suspend judgement. Some posts do have little barbs or triggers in them but the majority of participants really do try to avoid posting or getting caught on those.
Colin and Pietro will challenge others, as you will challenge them, but you are all three of you quite strong characters who definitely add colour to the world! I have learned much from all of you.

 

As to the NMB itself, it’s a little like a kaleidoscope, never the same from one year to the next.

 

[Brian]

I'll ask everyone to calm down please, and have a little respect for each other. Many of us here are unaware of other members backgrounds or experience. Both Colin and Ron have significant experience in their fields, and I have learned a ton from both of you. I respect both opinions and experiences. Ron has some amazing tales of his early years, and some incredible stories of what it was like in the arms field way back. Colin has significant experience in the UK art scene and Japanese art there. You both have a lot to offer. Sometimes it's good to go back on someone's profile and read what they posted years back, it allows you some insight into the person and how they respond and why.
Please guys, allow for different personalities. Sometimes what we perceive as rude or arrogant or argumentative is just part of someone's persona, and doesn't need to be taken personally. Ron...Colin has some amazing experience and stories from the UK scene. He has a lot to teach. Likewise Colin...Ron has a very different outlook on things from his days as a major weapons dealer in Canada, and has some incredibly interesting stories. Let's allow for different opinions and more importantly personalities, and maybe not take things too personally.

[Matsunoki]

12 hours ago, John C said:

Hey Colin: I'm not arguing the point just want to offer a definition. In sociology circles, we call this "conspicuous consumption." The goal of the rich here is, not to own and admire an artistic object, but rather to display their wealth to the rest of the "proletariate" as they see us. 

John C.

John, yes I fully understand and it is not pleasant behaviour. I find it distasteful but it’s a fact of life and has always been so. No argument from me on that point.

Edited in view of Brian’s comments.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Perhaps I should add a word for Pietro too.

I remember when he first appeared on the INS Netsuke scene as an eager youngster, and how he devoted himself to researching netsuke, walking the museums over the years, searching out netsuke collections and linking them electronically for people to experience, building up a vast knowledge in the interim. Still maturing! Never met him personally but generally I trust his judgment, as too that of Colin. 

 

Ron reminds me though of a grizzly Canadian frontiersman, who has seen much, bitterly forged by harsh weather, his thriving business shafted by fools in high places. What an incredible background he has had though, and what stories he has to tell, as Brian says. Needs to be heard by a glowing fire with a pinch of salt and a glass or two of whisky, all judgement suspended meantime!

 

 

[PietroParis]

That someone in his late forties (then) or mid fifties (now) should be considered a "youngster" is just a sad reflection of the state of these communities. And while undoubtedly "young" in collecting years, I am already "old" enough to appreciate that the levels of passion, scholarship and specialization in netsuke collecting are not inferior to what members of this forum are used to in the context of Nihonto. Being a grizzled expert in a field does not automatically imply knowing anything about the other, and when someone spews misinformation he needs to be called out.