Help with dated Sukesada

[CNS_44]

How’s it going all,

If I could I would like your folks opinion on this Katana. The seem to read “Bishu Osafune Ju Sukesada and on the opposite side of the nakago it’s dated February 1574. The blade visable has choji-ba hamon but it’s definitely in need of a polish by an expert. My question is whether or not it could be a gimei Sukesada? I have read on other threads that for Sue-Bizen blades Ju should be written before Osafune but I have also seen that there were a lot of smiths who signed Sukesada during this period so could it be just a style of Mei that the specific smith signed? The measurements of the blade are 

Nagasa: 67.9 cm

Nakago: 20 cm

Total: 87.9 cm

Thickness as the habaki notch : 5.1 mm

width at habaki: 2.85 cm

Yokote width: 1.88 cm

Kissaki: 3 cm

Sori: 2.3 cm

 

Id appreciate any help with this piece.

Best regards,

Chance

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9 by CNS_44

[klee]

Hi @CNS_44

 

You are right about the "Ju" character and this is most certainly gimei.

 

On top of that,  the sugata does not fit sue bizen at all.

 

Shinto Sukesada smiths signed with the " Ju " after "Osafune" and this was likely a shinto forgery attempt that overlooked this

[Jacques]

Wrong, ju is at the right location after Osafune

[Shugyosha]

10 hours ago, klee said:

Hi @CNS_44

 

You are right about the "Ju" character and this is most certainly gimei.

 

On top of that,  the sugata does not fit sue bizen at all.

 

Shinto Sukesada smiths signed with the " Ju " after "Osafune" and this was likely a shinto forgery attempt that overlooked this

 

I'm trying to see why someone would go to the effort of forging the signature of what could be any one of around 50 low grade smiths rather than one of the better Sukesada?

[klee]

@Shugyosha

 

It s certainly a head scratcher and I guess we ll never know why someone would fake a Tensho Sukesada.

 

Perhaps any sengoku Sukesada was seen was worthwile at that point and time 

[Rivkin]

Surprisingly, any Bizen and Soshu name was seen worthy of gimei.

[CNS_44]

Yup I guess we will never truly know on this one on one hand it kinda seems like a waste of time for someone to go and forge the signature of a Sukesada smith from that lineage because of how many of them there were in that period but then again it seems like they were willing to gimei almost anything. Thank you guys for talking a look at it I appreciate all of the feedback.

Best regards,

Chance

[eternal_newbie]

Keep in mind that "Bizen" and "Soshu" function like brand names which are more or less a known quantity. Think of all the counterfeit Casios and Seikos at the night markets in Asia. Why not put all your effort into making fake Rolexes? Because it's easier to fake a lower-end item from a well-known brand and sell it to someone at a price that seems cheap. The seller makes a decent profit off something that's less labor intensive and has fewer material costs, and the buyer gets to show off their brand name product to folks who won't know the difference at a price far below the market value of the real thing.

[SteveM]

I would go further and say "Sukesada" was a kind of brand, too, indicating a certain consistency of quality. I think these were also exported to China, so there would have been external demand for swords inscribed with "Sukesada". No doubt there would have been sufficient commercial incentive to add the name Sukesada to any sword.

 

Note I am not saying the sword in this post is gimei. With so many Sukesada smiths, it would take a detailed examination to determine if this was made by one of the 60 or so Sukesada smiths. I mean, there are a few whose signature style, and swordsmithing style, was distinctive enough that you could make a quick judgment, but there are a lot of Sukesada smiths, and this could be from one of the lesser smiths. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreeing with most of the above.

 

As mentioned elsewhere the name Sukesada had a kind of magic to it in the popular mind, and for a while even carried the general connotation of 'katana'. "Now, where did I put my Sukesada?"... 

The expression 'Tensuke' (derived from Tensho Sukesada) indicates a blade produced from such mass production at that time.

[eternal_newbie]

35 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

As mentioned elsewhere the name Sukesada had a kind of magic to it in the popular mind, and for a while even carried the general connotation of 'katana'. "Now, where did I put my Sukesada?"...

 

Yep, Sukesada was considered synonymous with Bizen swordmaking and swords in general, like how kids in the 90s would just refer to their sneakers as "Nikes" regardless of the actual brand.