Yves Posted October 28 Report Posted October 28 All, I know 2 kabuto, which seem to be originals in quite good condition. One is a Saotome Ietada with probably non matching menpo and the other is a Saotome Iesada with matching menpo for sale. Conditions comparable. Signatures match known signatures in attestations. What is the best choice Saotome Ietada or Iesada? Quote
uwe Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 I’m “afraid” that is a question of taste… The craftsmanship of both are of high to excellent quality. Ietada is said to be the founder of the school, hence earlier. But it is possible that his, as also the name Iesada, might be applied to more than one generation. What do you mean with “matching menpō”? 1 Quote
Yves Posted October 29 Author Report Posted October 29 (edited) Well, I had the signature of the Ietada verified and the comment was that the lines were not 'crisp' (meaning more swept lines) and since the signature seems to lacking a couple of characters it was probably from a later date than the Ietada 1. More probably towards the end of the Edo. The Iesada was seen as actually being from the 17th century. Both are similar in construction. The matching menpo was what the seller said. Fwiw I guess. Hereby the photo's of the signature. First one is Iesada, second the Ietada Edited October 29 by Yves Quote
Yves Posted October 29 Author Report Posted October 29 (edited) The Iesada with menpo. Looks like a great item, but haven't seen it in real life. The better item according to the people I talked to, but still a bit too expensively vs the market price if the quality of the items checks out irl. Edited October 29 by Yves Quote
uwe Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 You sure we talk about an Iesada signature. The last kanji is a bit concealed by the ukebari but doesn’t look like 貞… Quote
Shogun8 Posted October 30 Report Posted October 30 As well as being the founder of the school, Ietada was perhaps the most creative and prolific as well. There are many "non-standard" kabuto by Ietada, including variations of koboshi, shiinari, shinomi nari and even kawari kabuto. It would be helpful to see both kabuto to make a proper assessment. The above Ietada mei seems pretty crisp to me. And if the signature is lacking "Joshu ju" then it may be an early one. 1 Quote
Luc T Posted Friday at 04:27 PM Report Posted Friday at 04:27 PM This looks like a very good Ietada, tho other one is a Ienari I suppose? Quote
Yves Posted Saturday at 05:07 PM Author Report Posted Saturday at 05:07 PM Which smith is this? Quote
Yves Posted Saturday at 06:18 PM Author Report Posted Saturday at 06:18 PM 47 minutes ago, uwe said: “家親” (Iechika). Correct signature? Quote
jelda44 Posted Saturday at 06:19 PM Report Posted Saturday at 06:19 PM https://www.aoijapan.com/yoroi-and-kabuto-armor-saotome-ietada/ Quote
uwe Posted Saturday at 06:57 PM Report Posted Saturday at 06:57 PM 23 minutes ago, Yves said: Correct signature? His signature differed from time to time... From what I can make out, it might be good. Luc is one of the autors of a book dealing with Saotome helmets. Maybe he can offer more detailed analysis here. A picture of the bowl can also help to identify the smith. Quote
tom Posted Saturday at 07:04 PM Report Posted Saturday at 07:04 PM Maby it helps. https://www.torkild.com/catalogue/kabuto-saotome-lesada-6045798 Tom Quote
Yves Posted Saturday at 07:05 PM Author Report Posted Saturday at 07:05 PM (edited) Thanks Uwe. Anyway, it is said that it would be an Momoyama - early Edo item. But there seems to be some debate. Edited Saturday at 07:06 PM by Yves Quote
uwe Posted Saturday at 07:39 PM Report Posted Saturday at 07:39 PM Yes, there are some discussions about the period and there might were at least 3 generations with that name… Quote
Yves Posted Sunday at 07:54 AM Author Report Posted Sunday at 07:54 AM Seems to be a bit the general problem with armors, helmets.... 1 Quote
Luc T Posted Sunday at 02:42 PM Report Posted Sunday at 02:42 PM The signature is good. There are no Saotome earlier than edo. 1 Quote
Yves Posted Sunday at 05:28 PM Author Report Posted Sunday at 05:28 PM 2 hours ago, Luc T said: The signature is good. There are no Saotome earlier than edo. Thanks, is it an Iechika and if so which era are we talking about? Quote
Luc T Posted Sunday at 10:11 PM Report Posted Sunday at 10:11 PM (edited) 8 hours ago, Yves said: Thanks, is it an Iechika and if so which era are we talking about? The last pic is a koboshi Iechika. Iechika: 1630~1730. Indeed several generations, but no further info is available since the Saotome records are destroyed in a fire Edited Monday at 01:54 AM by Luc T Quote
Yves Posted Monday at 05:16 PM Author Report Posted Monday at 05:16 PM A question of general nature: what is preferred, an original unrestored unit, even with some (minor) damage or a restored one? Quote
uwe Posted Tuesday at 06:48 AM Report Posted Tuesday at 06:48 AM Depends on the “original” condition and in the other case the restoration (scope and quality of the work…materials used…etc). Quote
Yves Posted Tuesday at 07:47 PM Author Report Posted Tuesday at 07:47 PM The difference between the 2 helmets above is quite obvious. So, what is acceptable and what not, when looking at them? Quote
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