Saotome Ietada vs Saotome Iesada kabuto

[Yves]

All,

I know 2 kabuto, which seem to be originals in quite good condition. One is a Saotome Ietada with probably non matching menpo and the other is a Saotome Iesada with matching menpo for sale. Conditions comparable. Signatures match known signatures in attestations. 

What is the best choice Saotome Ietada or Iesada? 

[uwe]

I’m “afraid” that is a question of taste…

The craftsmanship of both are of high to excellent quality. Ietada is said to be the founder of the school, hence earlier. But it is possible that his, as also the name Iesada, might be applied to more than one generation. 

What do you mean with “matching menpō”?

 

[Yves]

Well, I had the signature of the Ietada verified and the comment was that the lines were not 'crisp' (meaning more swept lines) and since the signature seems to lacking a couple of characters it was probably from a later date than the Ietada 1. More probably towards the end of the Edo.
The Iesada was seen as actually being from the 17th century. 

Both are similar in construction.

The matching menpo was what the seller said. Fwiw I guess. 

Hereby the photo's of the signature. First one is Iesada, second the Ietada

Edited Wednesday at 03:47 PM by Yves

[Yves]

The Iesada with menpo. Looks like a great item, but haven't seen it in real life. The better item according to the people I talked to, but still a bit too expensively vs the market price if the quality of the items checks out irl. 

Edited Wednesday at 03:51 PM by Yves

[uwe]

You sure we talk about an Iesada signature. The last kanji is a bit concealed by the ukebari but doesn’t look like 貞…

[Shogun8]

As well as being the founder of the school, Ietada was perhaps the most creative and prolific as well. There are many "non-standard" kabuto by Ietada, including variations of koboshi, shiinari, shinomi nari and even kawari kabuto. It would be helpful to see both kabuto to make a proper assessment.

 

The above Ietada mei seems pretty crisp to me. And if the signature is lacking "Joshu ju" then it may be an early one.

[Yves]

[Luc T]

This looks like a very good Ietada, tho other one is a Ienari I suppose?

[Yves]

Which smith is this? 

[uwe]

“家親” (Iechika). 

[Yves]

47 minutes ago, uwe said:

“家親” (Iechika). 

Correct signature? 

 

[jelda44]

https://www.aoijapan.com/yoroi-and-kabuto-armor-saotome-ietada/

 

[uwe]

23 minutes ago, Yves said:

Correct signature? 

 

 

His signature differed from time to time...

From what I can make out, it might be good. Luc is one of the autors of a book dealing with Saotome helmets. Maybe he can offer more detailed analysis here. A picture of the bowl can also help to identify the smith.

[tom]

Maby it helps.

 

https://www.torkild.com/catalogue/kabuto-saotome-lesada-6045798

 

 

 

Tom

[Yves]

Thanks Uwe. 

Anyway, it is said that it would be an Momoyama - early Edo item. But there seems to be some debate. 

Edited Saturday at 07:06 PM by Yves

[uwe]

Yes, there are some discussions about the period and there might were at least 3 generations with that name…

[Yves]

Seems to be a bit the general problem with armors, helmets....

[Luc T]

The signature is good. There are no Saotome earlier than edo.

[Yves]

2 hours ago, Luc T said:

The signature is good. There are no Saotome earlier than edo.

Thanks, is it an Iechika and if so which era are we talking about? 

[Luc T]

8 hours ago, Yves said:

Thanks, is it an Iechika and if so which era are we talking about? 

The last pic is a koboshi Iechika.  Iechika:  1630~1730.   Indeed several generations,  but no further info is available since the Saotome records are destroyed in a fire 

Edited 5 hours ago by Luc T