Some advice for new collectors (because different flavours are available)

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Hokke said:

So is anyone aware of such an effort?

This one is from a batch of very well made luxurious silver mounted tanto and Tachi that hit the market a few years ago. 
They fooled a lot of people.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Hokke said:

In accordance with No. 3 on Colin’s list, has anyone ever encountered a “fake” that was so well done it had to be reviewed by peers to confirm. Lets assume fake to mean a purposeful attempt to misrepresent a blade not of Japanese origin as nihonto, or even shinsakuto. Im aware this is difficult to accomplish with nihonto since artificial aging is a trick not yet mastered, but that doesn't mean some haven't come close. 
Im curious because in the watch world this has become somewhat ordinary. It used to be that fakes could be spotted from a distance. Then, they needed only be held. As time passed, it required magnification on the outside. Now, we have super clones that are so well made, they must be opened and the smallest of differences must be identified. Ironically, we have replicas that actually perform better than the original in time keeping. 

So is anyone aware of such an effort?

 

There were several threads a few months ago about faking Juyo swords. Chris / Hoshi commented on them and a few others. 
 

Someone in Japan has been “re-creating” Juyo rated swords off the oshigata in the Juyo books. Probably stolen or misplaced Juyo origami which the person on Yahoo somehow got hold of. The authentic Japanese swords were properly forged and imitated the hamon but there were differences to what one would expect of the original. These were supposed to be high level swords (Go, Awataguchi etc) with genuine Juyo and TokuJu origami but the nie was not right or the specific hataraki, though very close, were not an identical match to the oshigata or TJ photo or the nakago was ever so slightly off. 
 

Worthwhile checking these threads…

[Tcat]

38 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

 

There were several threads a few months ago about faking Juyo swords. Chris / Hoshi commented on them and a few others. 
...

Worthwhile checking these threads…

 

Hi Michael, can you remember the name of the thread?

[Hokke]

36 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

 

There were several threads a few months ago about faking Juyo swords. Chris / Hoshi commented on them and a few others. 
 

Someone in Japan has been “re-creating” Juyo rated swords off the oshigata in the Juyo books. Probably stolen or misplaced Juyo origami which the person on Yahoo somehow got hold of. The authentic Japanese swords were properly forged and imitated the hamon but there were differences to what one would expect of the original. These were supposed to be high level swords (Go, Awataguchi etc) with genuine Juyo and TokuJu origami but the nie was not right or the specific hataraki, though very close, were not an identical match to the oshigata or TJ photo or the nakago was ever so slightly off. 
 

Worthwhile checking these threads…

Thats interesting, I will have a look for the thread. That said, you indicated that these were made in Japan. Are you aware of any being produced outside of Japan to the same degree of detail?

[nulldevice]

Check out these 2 threads:

 

 

 

 

[Brano]

55 minutes ago, Hokke said:

Thats interesting, I will have a look for the thread. That said, you indicated that these were made in Japan. Are you aware of any being produced outside of Japan to the same degree of detail?

Are there swordsmiths outside of Japan who make blades in the traditional way
So the important question is what do you define as "fake"?
A sword made outside of Japan?
A sword made from a material other than tamahagane? (Japanese swordsmiths also made from Nanbantetsu in the Edo period)

[Matsunoki]

Well, since this thread was aimed at total beginners I’d say first step is to spot the prevalent outright Chinese fakes….they are the ones most newbies fall for….and that would be a good starting point?

[Hokke]

5 minutes ago, Brano said:

Are there swordsmiths outside of Japan who make blades in the traditional way
So the important question is what do you define as "fake"?
A sword made outside of Japan?
A sword made from a material other than tamahagane? (Japanese swordsmiths also made from Nanbantetsu in the Edo period)

Hello Brano, if you have a look at my original post, I defined “fake” as “a purposeful attempt to misrepresent a blade not of Japanese origin as nihonto, or even shinsakuto.” The caveat is that the fake is so well made, it was challenging to detect. 

[Hokke]

4 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Well, since this thread was aimed at total beginners I’d say first step is to spot the prevalent outright Chinese fakes….they are the ones most newbies fall for….and that would be a good starting point?

Absolutely Colin, I wasnt trying to hijack your thread, I assure you. I only meant to expand on the term fake since you rightly mentioned it. Cheap mass produced fakes are covered very well here with many sources of information. I just wanted to step it up and discuss less common fakes and if they exist. 

[Schneeds]

2 hours ago, Brano said:

Are there swordsmiths outside of Japan who make blades in the traditional way
So the important question is what do you define as "fake"?
A sword made outside of Japan?
A sword made from a material other than tamahagane? (Japanese swordsmiths also made from Nanbantetsu in the Edo period)

Z-sey comes awfully close. Experienced people here can tell the difference, but new people?  Their smiths are clearly skilled and talented. 

 

https://www.swordjp.com/product/tamahagane-katana-blade

[Brano]

12 hours ago, Schneeds said:

Z-sey comes awfully close. Experienced people here can tell the difference, but new people?  Their smiths are clearly skilled and talented. 

 

https://www.swordjp.com/product/tamahagane-katana-blade

I saw the Hokke definition before I wrote my post

If the blade is made by a traditional process, what difference does it make if it is made by a Japanese in Japan, someone in China, Europe, the USA or anywhere else?
Probably the quality - and if the quality is similar, then it probably doesn't matter - isn't it?
And above all it is about the knowledge of the buyer to be able to recognize the quality
This is not about how easy we see the jihada, how attractive it is to look at, how much optically visible activity there is in the hamon ...
We will always go around in a vicious circle with such topics

If someone offers me a blade of metallurgical quality Mitsutada or Moriie for 1/10 of the market price, we will almost certainly make a deal
However, I know that will never happen

 

 

[Matsunoki]

4 minutes ago, Brano said:

We will always go around in a vicious circle with such topics

Hopefully not. Maybe a stand alone topic to give it a good kicking?

[Hokke]

3 hours ago, Brano said:

If someone offers me a blade of metallurgical quality Mitsutada or Moriie for 1/10 of the market price, we will almost certainly make a deal
However, I know that will never happen

Hi Brano, I wouldn't say never, these smiths weren't "magical" by any stretch of the imagination. 20 years ago, no one thought there would be a day when we would be making diamonds of significant size and yet here we are. Chemistry and technique are recipes, nothing more. Once you have the recipe for both, it's game over. However, your answer is interesting and I appreciate you airing it. I dont know if I agree with it, because I honesty haven't given it much thought, but perhaps we all should. Just for clarification though and so I won't be taking up space in Colins thread, I just want to make sure you saw my original post in full. The question wasn't if there was someone out there making blades traditionally to a high quality. The question was if there was someone out there making blades of similar quality and trying to pass them as nihonto. Some members posted info on blades made in Japan that attempted the fraud, but no one as yet has referenced anyone outside of Japan, not in this thread at least. And so, it seems my question is answered for the time being.

Anyway, I think I have hijacked Colins thread enough, so I digress, I appreciate everyone's input. 

 

[Hoshi]

Heed my words,

 

Quote

Hi Brano, I wouldn't say never, these smiths weren't "magical" by any stretch of the imagination

 

They were though. Real luminaries, the heights of which would never be reached again. 

 

It may sound dramatic, but it is by no means a poetic exaggeration. 

 

We have 600 years of trying up to today, continuing to this day with the Masamune prize and the new sword competitions. It has always been about recreating the lost marvels of a Golden Age that lasted a mere 150 years. In their quest, some came very close to the Soshu-den ideals (Nanki Shigekuni with Go, Hankei with Norishige, Yasutsugu with Sadamune), one has arguably exceeded his model (Kyomaro with Shizu), but most never even got to fly close the sun no matter how hard they tried. As for Bizen-den, Naotane and others did make some progress in resurfacing this lost art, but the gap remains even wider. 

 

But to realize this you must handle masterpieces of the Golden Age in-hand, and for this you must go to Japan, with open eyes and open mind.

 

Hoshi 

[Hokke]

On 8/29/2025 at 4:18 PM, Hoshi said:

Heed my words,

 

 

They were though. Real luminaries, the heights of which would never be reached again. 

 

It may sound dramatic, but it is by no means a poetic exaggeration. 

 

We have 600 years of trying up to today, continuing to this day with the Masamune prize and the new sword competitions. It has always been about recreating the lost marvels of a Golden Age that lasted a mere 150 years. In their quest, some came very close to the Soshu-den ideals (Nanki Shigekuni with Go, Hankei with Norishige, Yasutsugu with Sadamune), one has arguably exceeded his model (Kyomaro with Shizu), but most never even got to fly close the sun no matter how hard they tried. As for Bizen-den, Naotane and others did make some progress in resurfacing this lost art, but the gap remains even wider. 

 

But to realize this you must handle masterpieces of the Golden Age in-hand, and for this you must go to Japan, with open eyes and open mind.

 

Hoshi 

Your enthusiasm is noted, and I can appreciate it. That said, I stand by my post. Just because it hasn't been done yet, means little, IMO. Is it possible smiths of old used materials other than those we know of today that aided them in their work, absolutely. Is it possible that whatever those materials were, they are no longer available in the modern day, sure. Are either of these likely, I have no idea. What I do know, is that there is......something.......that is missing allowing for these works to remain un-copied, but it is.....something, either skill or material, or both.