Why is saving for a sword a taboo ?

[Scogg]

I stand by my previous comment on quality. But for the average collectors point of view: the perceived quality of available blades will range; what one collector sees as a “good” blade at $12,000, another might not consider worthwhile unless it’s over $100,000.
 

These evaluations are shaped by personal taste, collecting goals, and financial means. Saving for a $12K blade is a commendable goal, but that price point is ultimately arbitrary and varies widely among collectors. Given that swords range from a few hundred to well over six figures, it’s all relative.

 

-Sam

[Rayhan]

27 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Wrong 

 

What amazing options? They own one sword….they may have bought badly

 

I agree knowledge is necessary but only to your personal chosen level.

I dislike talking money but I have been fortunate, I could buy a great many things but I simply choose not to. Therefore I do not aspire to be an expert at Kantei nor to own expensive swords for the sake of ownership. They are not “my thing” and in my experience there are a great many others who share that view.

 

You can make snide remarks about my selling swords, but we all seem happy, many customers have returned many times. I do not make them buy anything.

 

Is that really so darned hard to understand?

Sorry are you speaking as a dealer, if you're a dealer then your point of view is understandable. You need to sell so asking people to save to buy goes against a dealers flow for lower tier items. This is understandable and i have been a victim of as have most new nihonto collectors. In that case maybe, like most other dealers you shouldn't take this thread too seriously. 

 

You say knowledge is necessary but only to your chosen level...I think most people choose to never stop learning anything, I mean most right, it's human nature to be a perpetual student of life and everything in it. Learning the right way or the hard way, well that is definitely the choice here.

 

What do you mean when you say, they own one sword they may have bought badly? As I said with a few years of experience both practical and theoretical so they might be far better prepared not to buy badly right?

 

*this a small disclaimer for @Matsunoki to remember to use your inner happy voice when reading this.

 

 

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, jawob said:

If I bought a sword at $12k, from a trusted dealer, at retail, on average how long would it take to break even if I had to sell? I know this is very general.

Yep, so I need to see the sword in question, and understand exactly what process and motivation you had and etc etc, its a trick question

[Rayhan]

6 minutes ago, Scogg said:

I stand by my previous comment on quality. But for the average collectors point of view: the perceived quality of these blades is inherently subjective; what one collector sees as a “good” blade at $12,000, another might not consider worthwhile unless it’s over $100,000.
 

These evaluations are shaped by personal taste, collecting goals, and financial means. Saving for a $12K blade is a commendable goal, but that price point is ultimately arbitrary and varies widely among collectors. Given that swords range from a few hundred to well over six figures, it’s all relative.

 

-Sam

Yes that is my absolute point. Just apply the same frame to the right era. Say Gendaito, learning over time and say saving 8k USD to enter the world of Gendaito, tell me, wouldn't you have your pick of the best? Maybe not one but a few of the best? The point is the same just applied to the direction,  now you are coming form the stand point of having a general direction in this hobby and focusing on a theme for a collection but this takes learning and experience also, right? 

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, Rayhan said:

Sorry are you speaking as a dealer,

Wrong again. I am selling my second collection because I am developing an interest in armour and my home is full of far too much stuff. Please don’t jump to conclusions. I have let that be known in this forum. 

Many of my first collection went to Japanese (and UK )dealers and many highly experienced members of the Token Society many years ago. Did I need to “convince them to buy them”?

 

Sorry but you are talking garbage with no knowledge and little forethought and now you are starting to insult not just me but anyone who is a dealer.

8 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

What do you mean when you say, they own one sword they may have bought badly?

What bit of that is difficult to understand? 
 

…and as for “the world is their oyster” get real please.

 

PS As I have said many times , I am perfectly happy. You are the one throwing your Teddy out.

 

[Rayhan]

4 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Wrong again. I am selling my second collection because I am developing an interest in armour and my home is full of far too much stuff. Please don’t jump to conclusions. I have let that be known in this forum. 

Many of my first collection went to Japanese (and UK )dealers and many highly experienced members of the Token Society many years ago. Did I need to “convince them to buy them”?

 

Sorry but you are talking garbage with no knowledge and little forethought and now you are starting to insult not just me but anyone who is a dealer.

What bit of that is difficult to understand? 
 

…and as for “the world is their oyster” get real please.

 

PS As I have said many times , I am perfectly happy. You are the one throwing your Teddy out.

 

Please relax, no teddies have been harmed in the making of this thread.

 

So you need to sell lower tier items to build a top tier armour collection, also understandable. 

 

I'm only insulting dealers that choose to knowingly sell lower tier items for higher prices than they should. Since you're not a dealer no inslut made and none was ever intended. If a dealer sells a low tier item for exactly what it's worth, you cannot fault them for it, but you can dissuade people from making the mistakes of buying them, also no fault in that, it's called risk assessment. 

 

[Matsunoki]

Just now, Rayhan said:

So you need to sell lower tier items

Wrong, I don’t need to sell anything. I am just choosing to. Another assumption.

1 minute ago, Rayhan said:

build a top tier armour collection,

Where did I say that? I’m not interested in £50k Kabuto or £100k suits. Another assumption.

 

3 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

I'm only insulting dealers that choose to knowingly sell lower tier items for higher prices than they should.

Why insult anyone? Dealers name their price. Buyers decide whether to buy or not. 
 

….again you keep talking money and values…..it’s all about the money with you.

[Brano]

Guys - let's remain gentlemen
The discussion should be about our common interest
Arguing helps no one

[Rayhan]

13 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Wrong, I don’t need to sell anything. I am just choosing to. Another assumption.

Where did I say that? I’m not interested in £50k Kabuto or £100k suits. Another assumption.

 

Why insult anyone? Dealers name their price. Buyers decide whether to buy or not. 
 

….again you keep talking money and values…..it’s all about the money with you.

Sorry but why are you assuming you know anything about me and what my values are here. That's also an assumption. 

 

Its very simple I've pushed a button that has started you off and you like to get that last word so please have at it. I'm not seeing when this thread became about you with full respect. Its simple im asking why people react like YOU (i mean you've made my case for me) when it comes to being patient before buying.

 

It is about money as when that warm fuzzy feeling fades away and the time comes to sell, it's very much about how that sale makes you feel. People leave this hobby in droves every year because of shoddy toxic practices like just buy what you see first and if it's cheap it's ok to get burned...don't go into the fire in the first place.

[Brano]

41 minutes ago, jawob said:

If I bought a sword at $12k, from a trusted dealer, at retail, on average how long would it take to break even if I had to sell? I know this is very general.

Never buy blades as something that should work to maintain value
The SP500 or Berkshire will more than double in a decade
This is a passion - and it always costs something
But the future is unpredictable

[Toki]

 

I must say,from lurking around in this forum I have not noticed people treating saving up for Nihonto as a taboo, quite the opposite actually.
That being said, I will admit that I´m also guilty of not waiting years before making my first purchase. Having spent the last half year or so reading books, articles and forum posts here, it is unecessary to say I am inexperienced and could use more time studying. But I also do not know when I have the chance to travel to Japan and inspect them in person again.

I should probably mention that I´m looking for an affordable entry/study piece and am simply going by what period and school I like with no intention to resell it any time soon, at least not for profit. My goal is to get a cheaper one first, then study and save up more to then safely make a higher tier purchase in the future

The only two requirements I set myself are that it has to be papered (so i can learn more about its origins, therefore I dont mind NTHK papers at all) and that it has to be from a reputable selller.

Is it smart to just buy out of impulse? Probably not. But with other collecting hobbies i learned that always saving for the next milestone leads to enjoying the price and reputation of a higher tier item more than the item itself.

 

[Rayhan]

Just now, Brano said:

Never buy blades as something that should work to maintain value
The SP500 or Berkshire will more than double in a decade
This is a passion - and it always costs something
But the future is unpredictable

This is the same risk with anything Brano. You know what I am trying to say here...more than most you know.

[Scogg]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the point you're making, but: I think where we disagree is in the assumption that most collectors are, or should be, moving toward a focused thematic collection built around a particular era or category like Gendaito. That kind of direction certainly has merit, especially for those who enjoy the academic or historical side of the hobby. But not all collectors approach this with that framework in mind. Some are drawn to individual pieces for personal, aesthetic, or even sentimental reasons; regardless of period, maker, quality, or school. For those collectors, the goal isn’t to “build a collection” in the traditional sense, but to find pieces that speak to them on a more immediate level. One of my favorite pieces, ya'll would probably rate a 2 out of 10  (it's personally sentimental).
 

In that context, applying a structured collecting logic, like saving $8K to target the best of Gendaito, may not resonate at all. It’s not that they necessarily lack experience or knowledge, it’s that their goals are different. They’re not trying to optimize within a category; they’re pursuing connection, variety, or even just curiosity.
 

So while I respect your point about direction and learning over time, I don’t think it’s the only, or even the most valid, way to approach this hobby. That’s exactly why I emphasized subjectivity. What matters to one collector might mean very little to another, and that diversity is part of what keeps this field interesting. Who are we to say that a first sword at 2k isn't a learning opportunity, or even a treasured piece in somebody else's collection?

I agree that saving for a nice item is a good thing, and should be encouraged for newbies. I just don't agree on placing these arbitrary monetary figures on collectors across the board. I believe using those types of sweeping broad-brush expectations are what causes many people to view the hobby as "elitist".

I subscribe to the opinion that an OK sword can be found at a variety of price levels, can be learned from, and those levels are different for every individual.
-Sam

[Rayhan]

Just now, Scogg said:

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the point you're making, but: I think where we disagree is in the assumption that most collectors are, or should be, moving toward a focused thematic collection built around a particular era or category like Gendaito. That kind of direction certainly has merit, especially for those who enjoy the academic or historical side of the hobby. But not all collectors approach this with that framework in mind. Some are drawn to individual pieces for personal, aesthetic, or even sentimental reasons; regardless of period, maker, quality, or school. For those collectors, the goal isn’t to “build a collection” in the traditional sense, but to find pieces that speak to them on a more immediate level. One of my favorite pieces, ya'll would probably rate a 2 out of 10  (it's personally sentimental).
 

In that context, applying a structured collecting logic, like saving $8K to target the best of Gendaito, may not resonate at all. It’s not that they necessarily lack experience or knowledge, it’s that their goals are different. They’re not trying to optimize within a category; they’re pursuing connection, variety, or even just curiosity.
 

So while I respect your point about direction and learning over time, I don’t think it’s the only, or even the most valid, way to approach this hobby. That’s exactly why I emphasized subjectivity. What matters to one collector might mean very little to another, and that diversity is part of what keeps this field interesting. Who are we to say that a first sword at 2k isn't a learning opportunity, or even a treasured piece in somebody else's collection?

I agree that saving for a nice item is a good thing, and should be encouraged for newbies. I just don't agree on placing these arbitrary monetary figures on collectors across the board. I believe using those types of sweeping broad-brush expectations are what causes many people to view the hobby as "elitist".

I subscribe to the opinion that an OK sword can be found at a variety of price levels, can be learned from, and those levels are different for every individual.
-Sam

If you want your first lesson to be what not to buy again then yes I agree this is very good school of thought and direction. 

 

I do agree that diamond hunting plays a big part of it, every now and then we see that one unicorn pop up and we say wow, what a lucky find and if that is your thing then keep doing the metal detector on a beach thing because that is exactly what it is, or high stakes gambling, wait, low stakes gambling that eventually gets heavy.

 

The pieces that speak to you change over time let's be real. You can look at a masame sword in terrible condition and fall for Masame specifically and then you see, Norikatsu in Tokubetsu Hozon or Gassan Sadakatsu in Masame and that spoke to you again and then you see Hosho and that is when you met the love of your life. Its all subjective. Point being  no one said just sit and don't see swords. Go see swords and see others mistakes and other wins and then see museum pieces and your local meetings, such a gift to have local societies, go to them and see swords, go to you friends house who has 195 swords and your other friends house with 3 swords. Go to see and to learn before some dealer tells you that you should buy this now "if you're starting out" because it's ok to get burned, no one should accept that, we wouldn't in other areas of our lives, why here? Its learned toxic practices. How can it be elitist to say "save your money educate yourself, no one can substitute knowledge" our parents are all elitist then. Our accountants should be shot!

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well I think my line of thought is pretty puzzling. I checked and there seem to be 3 ōdachi that have passed Tokubetsu Jūyō, of them I would only want the Mihara Masaie ōdachi of Yasukuni Jinja. However I have huge respect of shrines and I think it is much more important to have the sword remaining there so people can view it. The Motoshige and Ko-Bizen Yoshimune ōdachi both seem to be very nice swords but they don't have the shape & size that I would want for my personal collection. I am extremely happy that many of the ōdachi are staying in Japan and there will be a chance for travellers to see them. I also understand that my sword appreciation is way different from NBTHK, Tanobe, Tokyo National Museum, or even high level focused people in this forum etc.

 

I was extremely happy that I saw this ōdachi at Nagoya Tōken World that they had acquired recently

https://www.touken-world.jp/search/127485/

It was my favorite sword at the whole museum. I know that they have 100+ swords that are better than this one but I don't really care about that. This summer I saw 18 Kokuhō and 64 Jūyō Bunkazai swords while in Japan, however I think all of my 10 favorite items were various ōdachi and naginata. Of course by traditional appreciation I should value the best swords and smiths of Japan but in all honesty many of them do not excite me at all...

 

This following point might sound very weird to people with high end swords in their collection but for me personally owning a super expensive sword would be extremely stressful. I have been blessed to have been able to view some very high quality items that other people have shared, and it is amazing experience but for me owning an item like that would be stressful. For me it would be much more fun owning 5 to 10 more mediocre items. This might be completely unrelatable thing but it is my personal feeling. I feel much more fun as a caretaker of low-mid level basic stuff than thinking about daimyō level items.

[jawob]

16 minutes ago, Brano said:

Never buy blades as something that should work to maintain value
The SP500 or Berkshire will more than double in a decade
This is a passion - and it always costs something
But the future is unpredictable

Which means that a collector is financially taking more of a risk with a $12k blade vs $4k

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Well I think my line of thought is pretty puzzling. I checked and there seem to be 3 ōdachi that have passed Tokubetsu Jūyō, of them I would only want the Mihara Masaie ōdachi of Yasukuni Jinja. However I have huge respect of shrines and I think it is much more important to have the sword remaining there so people can view it. The Motoshige and Ko-Bizen Yoshimune ōdachi both seem to be very nice swords but they don't have the shape & size that I would want for my personal collection. I am extremely happy that many of the ōdachi are staying in Japan and there will be a chance for travellers to see them. I also understand that my sword appreciation is way different from NBTHK, Tanobe, Tokyo National Museum, or even high level focused people in this forum etc.

 

I was extremely happy that I saw this ōdachi at Nagoya Tōken World that they had acquired recently

https://www.touken-world.jp/search/127485/

It was my favorite sword at the whole museum. I know that they have 100+ swords that are better than this one but I don't really care about that. This summer I saw 18 Kokuhō and 64 Jūyō Bunkazai swords while in Japan, however I think all of my 10 favorite items were various ōdachi and naginata. Of course by traditional appreciation I should value the best swords and smiths of Japan but in all honesty many of them do not excite me at all...

 

This following point might sound very weird to people with high end swords in their collection but for me personally owning a super expensive sword would be extremely stressful. I have been blessed to have been able to view some very high quality items that other people have shared, and it is amazing experience but for me owning an item like that would be stressful. For me it would be much more fun owning 5 to 10 more mediocre items. This might be completely unrelatable thing but it is my personal feeling. I feel much more fun as a caretaker of low-mid level basic stuff than thinking about daimyō level items.

Well Jussi the sword that was your favourite in the museum didn't come at a juyo level mumei price tag right? If anyone knows the purchase price it must be in your database, so what was it? Quite a bill im sure. So I like your taste in what you define as not the best sword, that's high taste indeed  cannot wait to see what you call mediocre good man. 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

23 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

It is about money as when that warm fuzzy feeling fades away and the time comes to sell, it's very much about how that sale makes you feel. People leave this hobby in droves every year because of shoddy toxic practices like just buy what you see first and if it's cheap it's ok to get burned...don't go into the fire in the first place.

Ok, a simple question.

All the high end swords being sold by dealers everywhere….Japan, USA….anywhere - even  here on the Forum……are they all being sold at a recoupable price? Does the dealer(s) not have a substantial mark up built in?
Are they a better buy than any other “lower tier” item? 
 

[Rayhan]

4 minutes ago, jawob said:

Which means that a collector is financially taking more of a risk with a $12k blade vs $4k

That depend on so many factors, come with a scenario and an example and start a seperate thread and let's discuss that. But risk is risk especially for the unprepared and uneducated in any subject. 

[Scogg]

What do you say to those individuals, who may not be as fortunate as you, who cannot meet the expectations of saving for a "quality" blade at 8k?

Don't bother?

[Rayhan]

23 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Ok, a simple question.

All the high end swords being sold by dealers everywhere….Japan, USA….anywhere - even  here on the Forum……are they all being sold at a recoupable price? Does the dealer(s) not have a substantial mark up built in?
Are they a better buy than any other “lower tier” item? 
 

See i like this direction @Matsunoki. There is absolutely a huge markup. For instance if we buy a house off plan in a swanky neighbourhood and finally pay off the house and it's value drops the developer still made a killing. It can happen with a house in the best district depending on many factors but what is more likely is that having an item with all the factors built in helps. Is the house in good selling condition or does it need work, is the property in a desirable neighbourhood or indeed an up and coming neighbourhood (top  end Gendaito), is it fully certified and all relevant paperwork cleared, you can add cherries on top later, as in John Lennon was living in it previously or Ronaldo is just down the road or whatever you want in provenance, and there will be a higher likelihood of the sale being sound after  a given period of time as long as the economy is not collapsing around us into hell. 

[Scogg]

I don’t disagree that education and patience are key; of course we should all aim to learn before buying blindly. But the idea that someone must wait X amount of time, study X amount of hours, and spend X amount to avoid a “burn” overlooks that collecting is often personal, not transactional. Experience isn't always linear or curated through perfect choices. Sometimes a “mistake” sword sparks deeper interest, or sentimental value outweighs market logic. Gatekeeping what’s considered a valid entry point risks discouraging genuine curiosity. Encouraging people to engage, even imperfectly, isn’t toxic, it’s how many of us started.

[Rayhan]

11 minutes ago, Scogg said:

What do you say to those individuals, who may not be as fortunate as you, who cannot meet the expectations of saving for a "quality" blade at 8k?

Don't bother?

Ok please tell me what would anyone say to them. Just because you cannot buy now doesn't mean you will never be able to one day. And if they are less fortunate financially does that mean they cannot go to the same local meetings as me or anyone else, to the same museum and hang in the same community and still see good swords and see what can be defined as quality conditions? Come on. That is a question we all answer for ourselves. You know why, when that educated individual spots a gem and says nothing to anyone and quietly buys the gem for themselves they will be the winners. I'm saying learn and save and learn more and save and then maybe you have 8k and you walk past a gem and buy it for 4k and it goes Tokubetsu hozon after a polish and now you have definitely made up, depending on what you found. If you have 8k and you buy something for 900 because it spoke to you and you then never see that 900 back...you now have 7100 left and that's it. You're literally learning to go backwards. Congratulations. 

[Rayhan]

12 minutes ago, Scogg said:

I don’t disagree that education and patience are key; of course we should all aim to learn before buying blindly. But the idea that someone must wait X amount of time, study X amount of hours, and spend X amount to avoid a “burn” overlooks that collecting is often personal, not transactional. Experience isn't always linear or curated through perfect choices. Sometimes a “mistake” sword sparks deeper interest, or sentimental value outweighs market logic. Gatekeeping what’s considered a valid entry point risks discouraging genuine curiosity. Encouraging people to engage, even imperfectly, isn’t toxic, it’s how many of us started.

Its how many of us started, we need to start to try to change how this goes as it's a very toxic way of starting in a world where we have amples amount of information. This isn't 20 or 30 years ago. And a few decades ago the learned and experienced were still making good choices so we praise Compton and Davidson and the like, why? Not just because they had good swords but they learned.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately I am not aware of the actual price of the Kanenori ōdachi that landed at Nagoya Tōken World. It was at Christies auction few years ago with koshirae and Tokubetsu Hozon paper (which are not mentioned at Tōken World website and koshirae was not featured at display) https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6417474?ldp_breadcrumb=back&intobjectid=6417474&from=salessummary&lid=1

 

It was not sold at the auction, so nobody was willing to probably go for 30-35,000$ for it at that time. I remember for a while I had a wild thought that I might try to buy it some day and try to make a lower offer on it... Actually now I might be happier to see that the sword landed at Nagoya than to me and historically it is nice too.  The museum had very nice special exhibition of Inuyama swordsmiths, of course quality wise that was not in par with their special exhibition I saw in 2024 but there was actually amazing theme going for it. Maybe some day when visiting I will see the amazing Mikazuki Kanemitsu they acquired for huge amount of money, it will most likely be splendid sword but I might still like this basic ōdachi over it. So I might end up liking 30,000$ sword more than 1 million+ $ sword.  Of course in traditional appreciation they are on totally different level and I understand that that particular Kanemitsu tachi is of much higher overall quality. However I saw many Kanemitsu tachi this year including several Jūyō Bunkazai and even comparing top work of top smith is very difficult to me. Some I felt were nice swords while some were just amazing.

[Matsunoki]

22 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

There is absolutely a huge markup.

So, are they a better buy than a lower tier item or items?

…..let’s just stick to clear straightforward answers about swords and not muddy the waters with real estate.

 

 

[Scogg]

2 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

So, are they a better buy than a lower tier item or items?

…..let’s just stick to clear straightforward answers about swords and not muddy the waters with real estate.

 

 

Yeah, i'm a bit lost at this point . Too many assumptions levied on too many hypothetical parties. 

I'll end my input by saying: Nobody, as far as I can tell, has discouraged going to shows, museums, or spending time learning before a purchase. 

[Rayhan]

4 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

So, are they a better buy than a lower tier item or items?

…..let’s just stick to clear straightforward answers about swords and not muddy the waters with real estate.

 

 

Any item that is sold with the right elements in place is a better buy than any low tier item. Unless you find a unicorn masquerading as a grain of sand, well then good one!

[jawob]

31 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

That depend on so many factors, come with a scenario and an example and start a seperate thread and let's discuss that. But risk is risk especially for the unprepared and uneducated in any subject. 

I don't mean to be argumentative but I believe you have stated that collectors should be studying and saving for a $10k + nihonto. I agree that this price opens up better quality pieces, but in the end there is no guarantee that others will think the piece is worth the price. The old saying goes "opinions are like -, everyone has one".

 

I get the feeling that if you don't own a Rembrandt, than your art collection is lame.

 

[Rayhan]

20 minutes ago, jawob said:

I don't mean to be argumentative but I believe you have stated that collectors should be studying and saving for a $10k + nihonto. I agree that this price opens up better quality pieces, but in the end there is no guarantee that others will think the piece is worth the price. The old saying goes "opinions are like -, everyone has one".

 

I get the feeling that if you don't own a Rembrandt, than your art collection is lame.

 

There are no Rembrants for 8k or 10k. 

 

Look if you need to pass criticism because someone is urging people, especially new comers to look deeply before making purchases, use a better angle please.