NotANinja Posted July 4 Report Posted July 4 Hello all! I was lucky enough recently to be given this blade and wondered if anyone had any ideas on it's age or possibly which school it's from. I have my suspicions possibly koto based on the sugata but unsure about school. The hamon seems strange, ko-midare on one side and chu-suguha on the other, but as it is quite poor condition in most of the blade it's difficult to tell and I could easily be wrong. Pease tell me what you think I am very eager to know as much as possible about this blade. Also tsuba is iron and signed but I can't make it out as its rusted quite badly. The habaki is 2 part, with the inner part being gilt copper and the outer being copper with a gilt brass(?) plate soldered to it? Is it mumei or o-suriage? I still don't realy know how to find out as I'm still learning. Here are the measurements: Nagasa: 71.8cm/28 1/4 in Overall length: 92cm /36in Hamon: Appears chu-suguha on one side and ko-midare on the other Sori: 2.5cm /1in Motohaba: 2.9cm Sakihaba: 1.6cm Motokasane: 6mm Sakikasane: 3mm Kissaki: 2.7cm Nakago: 20.3cm Thank you! 2 Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted July 4 Report Posted July 4 Good evening Rob, Just to get the ball rolling and also to say welcome onboard. Here are my 五銭硬貨 on the current Koshirae. The Tsuka reminds me a little like a Shirasaya with a leather combat type cover added, and I wonder if the Saya was once similarly attired, as the rudimentary Metal Ashi and Obitori are sometimes found on both late War Military and Non Military Koshirae. I'm wondering if Bruce (Pennington) could shed some light, as he is the go to man for ww2 Military and non military mounts in this neck of the woods. 5 Quote
Rivkin Posted July 4 Report Posted July 4 Its a pity kissaki is 2.7cm, would it be 1.5cm there would be a stronger potential. It has a rather graceful koshi-zori and prominent fumbari, so its either early Muromachi or Kamakura, unfortunately first is more likely. There seems to be bo utsuri. suguha hamon with possibly some nie activity. It would be nice to try absolute best to capture the details. If its pure suguha - Mihara, Mino Zenjo-Kaneyoshi, Tegai Kanetoshi can be an option. There is also Nobukuni and Ryokai to consider. 1 1 Quote
NotANinja Posted July 5 Author Report Posted July 5 8 hours ago, Baka Gaijin said: Good evening Rob, Just to get the ball rolling and also to say welcome onboard. Here are my 五銭硬貨 on the current Koshirae. The Tsuka reminds me a little like a Shirasaya with a leather combat type cover added, and I wonder if the Saya was once similarly attired, as the rudimentary Metal Ashi and Obitori are sometimes found on both late War Military and Non Military Koshirae. I'm wondering if Bruce (Pennington) could shed some light, as he is the go to man for ww2 Military and non military mounts in this neck of the woods. Thank you for the info! And for the welcome! I did wonder about the koshirae. Another thing to note is that when on, the tsuka seems much too big for the nakago even though the mekugi ana is in the right place. Wondering if perhaps the original tsuka broke at some point in the field and was replaced with what they had at the time along with a bunch of seppa to make it fit better? Not sure. The tsuba I found a reverse image search of one identical but in better condition but the webpage it was on has been deleted now frustratingly! The only bit of caption I could read says "sukashi tsuba, mid edo per..." Thank you for all your help! 1 Quote
NotANinja Posted July 5 Author Report Posted July 5 8 hours ago, Rivkin said: Its a pity kissaki is 2.7cm, would it be 1.5cm there would be a stronger potential. It has a rather graceful koshi-zori and prominent fumbari, so its either early Muromachi or Kamakura, unfortunately first is more likely. There seems to be bo utsuri. suguha hamon with possibly some nie activity. It would be nice to try absolute best to capture the details. If its pure suguha - Mihara, Mino Zenjo-Kaneyoshi, Tegai Kanetoshi can be an option. There is also Nobukuni and Ryokai to consider. Ill give it another measure when I get back from work this evening. It might very well be smaller but there's no yokote line for me to measure from as the kissaki looks like someone's taken sanpaper to it. I'll try and get some better pictures then too but it might have to wait until Sunday as I'm at work all day today sadly. Either way whether Kamakura or Muromachi I'm still astounded at the age of these things and feel privileged to take care of them. On that, what's the best way to take care of it at the moment? I've wiped the blade down with isopropyl alcohol and then wiped it down with choji oil. It's quite badly rusted in places and sadly as some deep-looking pitting in the spots along the shinogi line and all over really. There's also a big ol kink about 7" from the end. I don't want to put it back in it's saya as I'm worried that'll make it worse as I don't know what's in there. Currently it is oiled and wrapped in butcher paper. And any way to get rust off the tsuba without damaging it? Cheers! Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 Just a small observation about the Tsuka. Are there two thin metal bands under the leather and a rudimentary fuchi enclosing? I have heard of strengthening bands being applied in the field. Also it, is the Tsuka internal depth the full length of the Tsuka itself? Which could mean it was a Saya repurposed. 1 Quote
Brian Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 I'm with Malcolm that this saya was once covered by a leather combat cover and taken to war. 1 1 Quote
Jacques Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 Kiri nakago jiri ... Quote Kamakura or Muromachi Could be Shinto or Shinshinto too... What Rivkin says should be taken with enormous caution. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 6 hours ago, NotANinja said: On that, what's the best way to take care of it at the moment? I've wiped the blade down with isopropyl alcohol and then wiped it down with choji oil. It's quite badly rusted in places and sadly as some deep-looking pitting in the spots along the shinogi line and all over really. Rob, You've done everything you can short of paying for a polish. You can try uchiko powder, but I've had little to no success with it on rust and spots. 1 Quote
NotANinja Posted July 5 Author Report Posted July 5 13 hours ago, Baka Gaijin said: Just a small observation about the Tsuka. Are there two thin metal bands under the leather and a rudimentary fuchi enclosing? I have heard of strengthening bands being applied in the field. Also it, is the Tsuka internal depth the full length of the Tsuka itself? Which could mean it was a Saya repurposed. So there are 3 thin metal bands under the wrap, one close to the opening and the other 2 where you can see them in the picture. The depth of the tsuka is the same as the length of the nakago. When assembled, the tsuka seems disproportionately big compared to the blade, I'll attach a picture. Quote
NotANinja Posted July 5 Author Report Posted July 5 I also edited this photo to show sugata better Quote
Rivkin Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 I don't know why they come out as exceptionally low resolution. 40MP image, external link if needed - something we can work with. Unfortunately cell phone lenses also distort a lot so sugata is best photographed with the phone exactly in the middle - as an example sori in the first image and the last are different because the phone positioning is different. In the same way - high res photograph of the <activities>. Otherwise its a guess, especially since its suriage. I think there is yokote and your measurement was probably correct. Can be Muromachi can be something else, with better pictures one can try to estimate. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted July 6 Report Posted July 6 Good morning Rob, Thank you for confirming that there are three bands under the leather cover. It reminds me of the illustration in Sword and Same of the type of Tsuka used for Tameshigiri by the Yamada family. Also in the 1980’s, when Yoshihara Yoshindo created a blade to test the famous Sasakibara Kenkichi “Kabutowari performed in front of the young Emperor Meiji”, the swordsman Kawabata Terutaka asked for a similar three band Tsuka to be made. As for the length of the Tsuka being disproportionate, I have seen one Ryuha at the Meiji Jingu Embu using a longer than normal Tsuka. In the current Gendai Budo, the Bokuto used by some of the groups affiliated to the chaps in black, who shall not be named, is sometimes disproportionately longer. Quote
NotANinja Posted July 13 Author Report Posted July 13 On 7/4/2025 at 10:43 PM, Rivkin said: Its a pity kissaki is 2.7cm, would it be 1.5cm there would be a stronger potential. It has a rather graceful koshi-zori and prominent fumbari, so its either early Muromachi or Kamakura, unfortunately first is more likely. There seems to be bo utsuri. suguha hamon with possibly some nie activity. It would be nice to try absolute best to capture the details. If its pure suguha - Mihara, Mino Zenjo-Kaneyoshi, Tegai Kanetoshi can be an option. There is also Nobukuni and Ryokai to consider. On 7/5/2025 at 12:18 PM, Jacques said: Kiri nakago jiri ... Could be Shinto or Shinshinto too... What Rivkin says should be taken with enormous caution. On 7/5/2025 at 10:31 PM, Rivkin said: I don't know why they come out as exceptionally low resolution. 40MP image, external link if needed - something we can work with. Unfortunately cell phone lenses also distort a lot so sugata is best photographed with the phone exactly in the middle - as an example sori in the first image and the last are different because the phone positioning is different. In the same way - high res photograph of the <activities>. Otherwise its a guess, especially since its suriage. I think there is yokote and your measurement was probably correct. Can be Muromachi can be something else, with better pictures one can try to estimate. I've taken some better photos trying to capture as much of the hada as I possibly can and ill add them here. To me it looks like a tight ko-itame/masame hada? Difficult to see. With my research the most similar blade I could find in terms of sugata, mune, hada, hamon, kissaki and tapering of the blade is this kamakura piece sold recently at sothebys. But I am fully aware this may be massive wishful thinking on my part: https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2025/important-Japanese-swords-and-armour-from-the-paul-l-davidson-collection/a-katana-attributed-to-awataguchi-kuniyasu-heian Quote
NotANinja Posted July 13 Author Report Posted July 13 It's really hard to get features properly when the blade is in a sorry state. Fills me with great sadness to know that this has potentially been around for 800 years being cared for only to end up rotting away in someone's shed in the last 50 years of it's life. Quote
Mister Gunto Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 A lot to like about this blade, and it's still salvageable. Quote
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