Shintōgo Kunimitsu Tantō....diamond in the rough?

[Jacques]

They don't know how to write kanji, yet they act like experts. This “Kuni” is engraved in the normal way....

[Lewis B]

Consistency of koshi-bi horimono carving's on dated Shintogo tanto

 

1293 tanto (earliest dated blade by a Kamakura blacksmith and reason why Shintogo Kunimitsu is considered the founder of Kamakura blacksmithing). Image from the Sano museum Masamune: the genius of Japanese swords and his lineage exhibition catalogue. Length of koshi-bi is 37.4% of nagasa

 

 

1306 tanto which could be daimei-daisaku work by Yukimitsu 

Length of kochi-bi  is 40.6% of nagasa

 

1308 tanto

Length of koshi-bi is 37.3% of nagasa

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

26 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

 

 

1293 tanto (earliest dated blade by a Kamakura blacksmith and reason why Shintogo Kunimitsu is considered the founder of Kamakura blacksmithing). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Afraid not true. There is a Moriie dated 1280, KoAoe 1190s, Bungo Yukihira 1205 and others. 

[Lewis B]

22 hours ago, Gakusee said:

 Afraid not true. There is a Moriie dated 1280, KoAoe 1190s, Bungo Yukihira 1205 and others. 

You could well be right. I was just going by the descriptions provided in the Sano Museum Catalogue, where they quoted the specifications and some further details about each of the 50 or so blades in the 2002 exhibition. Rather than earliest Kamakura blacksmith, perhaps they should have said the earliest Kamakura blacksmith in the Soshuden style. 

[Gakusee]

22 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

You could well be right. 

Lewis, I would not have quoted specific dates if I were not certain  

[Lewis B]

17 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Lewis, I would not have quoted specific dates if I were not certain  

I think we are mixing up our Kamakura's. Kamakura era vs Kamakura the geographic location.

Obviously this 1293 Shintogo tanto isn't the earliest signed and dated Kamakura era sword. Its the earliest signed blade with reference to location ie resident of Kamakura, the seat of the Kamakura shogunate. This is what the Sano were trying to convey. 

[nulldevice]

30 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

I think we are mixing up our Kamakura's. Kamakura era vs Kamakura the geographic location.

Obviously this 1293 Shintogo tanto isn't the earliest signed and dated Kamakura era sword. Its the earliest signed blade with reference to location ie resident of Kamakura, the seat of the Kamakura shogunate. This is what the Sano were trying to convey. 

 

Tomato tomato! 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do think the timeline in Sagami province is bit complicated as there are some signed and dated items that are earlier than Shintōgo Kunimitsu work. However I would not maybe consider them as Sōshū tradition swords as the mainline tradition started after active period of these smiths. But personally I tend to go by provinces instead of traditions.

 

There is 1271 dated tachi by Yukimitsu (行光) (not "the" Yukimitsu but an earlier smith)

https://bunka.nii.ac.jp/heritages/detail/242413

 

Also a 1280 dated tachi by Mitsufusa (光房)

https://bunkazai.pref.yamaguchi.lg.jp/bunkazai/detail.asp?mid=70066&pid=bl

 

Unfortunately I have not seen either of these swords in real life.

[sabiji]

It is said that swordsmiths of the Mokusa tradition settled in Musashi, but also in Kamakura, before the Soshu-Den was established.

[Gakusee]

If Sano are talking about Kamakura-area based (ie Sagami) smiths who dated their work, then Jussi is of course right. If it is Kamakura-period smiths, there are many dated examples and others beyond the ones I quoted above  (well, many as in more than 4-5, of course not a plethora). Either way, the Sano statement, if quoted correctly, is strictly speaking a mis-statement. But Haydn, Sano Museum is a source of very good knowledge and they have a great collection. 
I am not too familiar with the Mokusa school and cannot comment on whether there are signed early works, which is what the discussion is about. 
In conclusion, Sano should have said “earliest Soshu-den smith who worked in Sagami/ Kamakura and dated his work”. But we are being pettifogging here. 

[Lewis B]

Another tidbit that could have some interesting connotations. Norishige produced tanto that have mitsu-mune as well as takenokozori-style tanto with iori-mune. This tanto was made in the latter style with slight uchizori curvature. 

 

And as stated by Markus "a takenokozori points to late Kamakura in general and for example to Norishige (則重) in particular."

 

 

Signed Norishige tanto. Sugata: hira-zukuri, takenoko-zori, iori-mune, nagasa 23.8cm, from the Compton Collection