NTHK NPO and NBTHK

[Bosco]

Hi, 

 

I just want to get some advice here. If I have a mumei sword thats already had a NTHK NPO Yushuto certificate and was published on NPO booklet. Is it necessary to go for NBTHK shinsa ?. What’s the benefit for it ?.

 

 

 

[Bosco]

ChatGPT including our group as reference . I like that. Is this the proper answer I’m looking for ? 

[Bugyotsuji]

ChatGPT being diplomatic I see. Did you see where it found the information? (This NMB site is quoted as reference.)

[Bosco]

18 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

ChatGPT being diplomatic I see. Did you see where it found the information? (This NMB site is quoted as reference.)

I think it’s the one from 2020. Where everyone discussed about the old scoring system. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

If not in hurry and can spend extra cash I would put it to Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa.

 

I only have the 1st NTHK book but I know there are at least 12 NTHK Yushu swords that have been also been papered by NBTHK.

 

In the worst case scenario if the NBTHK attribution would be much "lower" nobody would need to know it was sent to their shinsa... But I think it seems like a nice sword and as it is NTHK Yushu it shouldn't get too bad attribution I'd guess.

[Bosco]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

If not in hurry and can spend extra cash I would put it to Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa.

 

I only have the 1st NTHK book but I know there are at least 12 NTHK Yushu swords that have been also been papered by NBTHK.

 

In the worst case scenario if the NBTHK attribution would be much "lower" nobody would need to know it was sent to their shinsa... But I think it seems like a nice sword and as it is NTHK Yushu it shouldn't get too bad attribution I'd guess.

I mean the benefit of NBTHK, at this moment i dont know what else this blade can be attributed to.

[Tohagi]

Hello,

Much collectors prizes NBTHK as sure and relevant, many don't trust NTHK NPO above a certain price level. If you think it could go tokubetsu or juyo, submit it for shinza, If you don't then let it be...

 

Best,

Eric 

[Rivkin]

Can't say anything without better pictures. It does look like very Yamato-ish Yamato Shizu, the key question is jigane any good.

[Bosco]

4 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Can't say anything without better pictures. It does look like very Yamato-ish Yamato Shizu, the key question is jigane any good.

This is the best they have

[Bugyotsuji]

The best 'they' have. So you don't actually have it? Is it in Japan, and would you be able to ask them to submit it for NBTHK shinsa for you?

 

If you have the patience, time and money, then sure, why not submit it to the NBTHK? If the same attribution comes back, that would make the attribution super solid. (Sometimes an unexpected result comes back, but in this case you don't think it will.) As Jussi says, you could always throw away the result if you don't like it.

 

Ultimately 'gold standard' NBTHK papers tend to hold a little more weight amongst potential buyers, if resale is what you are worrying about. If you are confident in the blade, though, that is the most important thing.

[Bosco]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The best 'they' have. So you don't actually have it? Is it in Japan, and would you be able to ask them to submit it for NBTHK shinsa for you?

 

If you have the patience, time and money, then sure, why not submit it to the NBTHK? If the same attribution comes back, that would make the attribution super solid. (Sometimes an unexpected result comes back, but in this case you don't think it will.) As Jussi says, you could always throw away the result if you don't like it.

 

Ultimately 'gold standard' NBTHK papers tend to hold a little more weight amongst potential buyers, if resale is what you are worrying about. If you are confident in the blade, though, that is the most important thing.

Yes still in Japan, i’m getting a Koshirae made and shinsa after that. Im just curious about the outcome.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, ok, then in that case, as others have said above, go for it!!! 

 

(The wait will be exciting, and don't forget to let us know the result! ) 

[Brano]

In the previous post it was stated on NTHK papers Kenmu Era ( 1334-1336 )
However, according to sugata I would say a few decades younger around the Enbun/Joji 

 

[Bosco]

On 6/25/2025 at 2:00 PM, Bugyotsuji said:

Ah, ok, then in that case, as others have said above, go for it!!! 

 

(The wait will be exciting, and don't forget to let us know the result! ) 

Hi,

 

i got the result back. It passed Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon and attributed as 1st generation Nobukuni. Dealer said it possibly to go for Juyo certificate. 
 

what do you think of the unexpected result?

[Bosco]

On 6/24/2025 at 9:22 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

If not in hurry and can spend extra cash I would put it to Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa.

 

I only have the 1st NTHK book but I know there are at least 12 NTHK Yushu swords that have been also been papered by NBTHK.

 

In the worst case scenario if the NBTHK attribution would be much "lower" nobody would need to know it was sent to their shinsa... But I think it seems like a nice sword and as it is NTHK Yushu it shouldn't get too bad attribution I'd guess.

It passed Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon attributed as 1st Generation Nobukuni. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Fantastic result, congratulations! 

[eternal_newbie]

Interesting call, but a very good result regardless. Well done! An attribution to Shodai Nobukuni suggests that the NBTHK has a higher opinion of the jigane than the NTHK-NPO, while the latter were more impressed by the activities around the hamon and the presence of nagare.

 

I agree with the dealer's opinion that this is worth a shot at Juyo; I wouldn't be too surprised to see it change attribution again if it passes, since there's apparently enough evidence to lean towards either Yamashiro or Yamato influence.

 

Some information here about the complexities around the first two generations of Nobukuni: https://nihontoclub.com/schools/YamashiroNobukuni

 

Edited Friday at 04:18 AM by eternal_newbie
Added link with information about Nobukuni

[Schneeds]

Congratulations.  That is indeed an interesting attribution. Love that Sugata.  

[PNSSHOGUN]

Great result, look forward to seeing the Koshirae you had commissioned for it. 

[Bosco]

14 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Great result, look forward to seeing the Koshirae you had commissioned for it. 

The Saya couldn’t be made in time before the Shinsa , so they sent it off for Shinsa and continue once it back. Which is about now. But i’m not sure about going for Juyo. Seem like another year at least. 

[MassiveMoonHeh]

One thing I have learnt about the Nihonto game is time is fluid and one year becomes three very quickly as you get other things done and as the status rises. In for a penny, in for a pound. Sounds like you have an excellent blade, so try for Juyo whilst it is still in Japan and see what happens. You never know. And you will always wonder if you don't.

 

Regardless, well done bud! This is an excellent result!

[eternal_newbie]

2 minutes ago, MassiveMoonHeh said:

Sounds like you have an excellent blade, so try for Juyo whilst it is still in Japan and see what happens.

 

And it would be very cool to have a sword that's both Yushu-to and Juyo token; especially if they're two different attributions! Talk about a great conversation piece.

[Jussi Ekholm]

That is wonderful news. I think you can be fairly confident it is a Nanbokuchō blade as both organizations have given judgement for this period even though slightly different directions.

[Takezo]

12 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

And it would be very cool to have a sword that's both Yushu-to and Juyo token; especially if they're two different attributions! Talk about a great conversation piece.

Definitely would be awesome to have for this one!

 

Also, it would be interesting to see a database of blades with dual Yushu / Juyo rankings. I actually have one of these also, rated "◎ Yushu-saku" which is second highest Yushu rank. @Jussi Ekholm you don't have something like this in your wealth of data mining do you?

Edited Friday at 06:43 PM by Takezo

[Takezo]

Continued...funny thing to me is that the NTHK session 22 oshigata is much more accurate for hamon than the NBTHK Juyo session 12 oshigata

[eternal_newbie]

29 minutes ago, Takezo said:

Also, it would be interesting to see a database of blades with dual Yushu / Juyo rankings. I actually have one of these also, rated "◎ Yushu-saku" which is second highest Yushi rank.

Neat! If you don't mind me asking, what were the two attributions given by the organizations?

[Takezo]

1 minute ago, eternal_newbie said:

Neat! If you don't mind me asking, what were the two attributions given by the organizations?

Well, mine is signed so it is not much of an issue  - Hizen Yoshifusa (Shodai Tadayoshi student and daisaku/mei artisan for him).

[eternal_newbie]

2 hours ago, Takezo said:

Well, mine is signed so it is not much of an issue  - Hizen Yoshifusa (Shodai Tadayoshi student and daisaku/mei artisan for him).

 

Nice. Still awesome to have a sword that was authenticated and recognized as high-tier work by two independent orgs!