Suspected Japanese Dagger

[Ratill]

Hi All,

 

I know it’s a dagger and not a sword but I don’t know where else to put it. My question is this: I know that the US made edged weapons for the Philippine resistance during the war. Could this dagger have been made for Philippine forces loyal to Japan? When I first saw this knife on the seller’s table, I thought it was Philippine but the the characters on the blade make that doubtful. I believe the two characters and the diamond shaped logo are Japanese (if they are Chinese, I’m probably out of luck on this forum). Can anyone translate the legible characters or does anyone recognize the logo?

Although the piece does look like something that would be found in the northern Philippines, it looks like factory work, not the typical Philippine local blacksmith job. Also, given the residual bitterness over the Japanese occupation, I don’t think early postwar Japanese exports to the Philippines would have been very welcome.

Features of the hilt, guard, and blade are very unlike the typical Japanese hunting knife made for export to the US. For starters, the 6.125” (15.5cm) single edge blade is ground on one side only. Another anomaly is the steel guard which is far larger than would be seen on a US hunting knife. Lastly, the plug bayonet shaped hilt (steel ferrule, and pommel cap) is also atypical for a US hunting knife.

As you can see from the flat side photo, the blade profile, while slightly asymmetrical, really doesn’t have a clip point as the grind would make it appear. That grind does give the blade a false edge at the tip though. It appears that the tang is peened over the pommel cap. The hilt itself is lathe turned hardwood and is very smooth. The blade, guard, and pommel cap are joined together with no movement but the ferrule and the wood hilt rotate freely. There is a leather washer at the base of the blade. No sheath.

 

Sincerely,

RTillman

[Bugyotsuji]

特製 Tokusei in Japan means 'specially made' and it looks typical to me.

Perhaps someone here will recognize the logo mark of the workshop or factory?

[Mister Gunto]

Perhaps a Commerical Export blade made in Japan or China, and re-handled later by a local shop in the Philippines? 

[Ratill]

Piers D,

Thank you for your help. I had previously been told what the characters meant but my informant said that he got the information via Google AI and didn’t consider the source reliable. It is very good to get trustworthy confirmation. Could you elaborate when you say the dagger looks “typical” to you? The dagger does look typical for the Philippines but is atypical for the US. I don’t think the average American would accept a hunting type knife with an asymmetrically ground blade and an experienced hunter probably wouldn’t want one with such a large guard either (it would just get in the way). That brings us back to the Philippines. The question is, given the post war anger toward the Japanese, would there have been a large enough market for a Japanese manufacturer to specially make an asymmetrically ground blade and export it to the Philippines (especially with Japanese characters on it)? Perhaps the enmity has lessened over the years but the economic disparity between the two countries has steadily increased. In recent times, would a Japanese manufacturer be able to export a blade at a price point competitive with local knife makers? The above factors are what led me to the admittedly far-fetched supposition that I opened this thread with.

 

Bradley S,

The informant I mentioned in my response Piers D also wrote that the the same characters were said by Google AI to mean the same thing in Chinese and Japanese. So China and Taiwan are possible sources. After mainland China became the People’s Republic, I don’t think the government would have allowed a dagger to be manufactured and sold to the public domestically and the close Philippine-American ties make it unlikely the the mainland was exporting anything to the Philippines until after 1972 (when Nixon “opened” China). That leaves Taiwan which is possible but the logo stamped on the blade looks somehow Japanese to me.

 

Sincerely,

RTillman

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies for the lack of clarity re 'typical', Rob. To me, although admittedly these cultures share many kanji and words, it looks like the style of markings that you would find on a Japanese-made blade, as opposed to 'Chinese' markings. This is admittedly only a feeling though. I spent some time yesterday searching for such (pre) WW2 blade wording and logo in order to find something to back up this feeling, but failed to find anything useful. The factory could have been in Taiwan or Shanghai under Japanese occupation, of course. Unless it is of later manufacture. The shape of the blade (but not the nakago) does seem to give a nod to Japanese style. That's about the best I can do as we are entering marshy territory here...

[EdWolf]

I'm not a knife expert but the knife bears a strong resemblance to the so-called Shanghai dagger.

[Ratill]

Piers D,

I have the same “Japanese” feeling about the characters and logo as you do but, given my slight knowledge of things Japanese, my impressions don’t count for much (if anything). I too looked online for information but all I came up with was a lot of currently made chef’s knives being advertised as “Tokusai”. While post war manufacture (whether early or late) is certainly possible, I think that the cultural and economic issues I mentioned before argue against it. That’s why I suspect that the knife was made during the war. If made during the war, commandeered factories in Japanese occupied Taiwan or Shanghai are certainly plausible manufacturing sites.

 

Ed,

You may be on to something. Prior to this, I had never heard of a Shanghai dagger but the examples I found online look very close to what I have. It is entirely possible that my dagger is the Japanese take on the Shanghai dagger just as the Fairbairn Sykes is the British interpretation.

 

Sincerely,

RTillman

[Brian]

Nothing to do with the Shanghai dagger. I collect FS quite seriously, and any resemblance here is purely co-incidental. I don't see anything here arguing for wartime production. There are literally thousands of assorted knives made for commercial sale in the 50's and 60's from small factories. 
I suspect the handle was a later addition, likely the original one perished and was replaced by a simple turned one. Has a newer look to it. Certainly nothing that was ever made in any great quantity or used in any official capacity. Could have been made by any small Japanese maker making for the export market in the 50's. There was a prolific market back then, which was later capitalized on by people like Pete Gerber, Al Mar, Kershaw and others. 

[Ratill]

Brian,

 

    From what I have read online, the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger was developed from the Shanghai dagger. Is this incorrect? I wouldn’t know because my knowledge of Fairbairn-Sykes is almost nil and I only learned of the existence of the Shanghai dagger in this thread. In any event, my knife looks a lot closer to the Shanghai dagger than does the Fairbairn-Sykes.

    While I agree with you that postwar production is certainly a possibility, I also think that wartime production is equally plausible. Although, as you state, there may have been “literally thousands of assorted knives made for commercial sale in the 50's and 60's from small factories”, I have never seen a factory made, name branded knife from the 50’s or 60’s sold in the US that was beveled on one side and completely flat on the other. Perhaps you could provide examples of same? (Name and model numbers would be helpful for further online research.) I am equally unaware of any foreign, factory made, and name branded knives sold in the US in the 50’s or 60’s that weren’t stamped with country of origin.

    There are a wide variety of northern Philippine knives that are beveled on one side and flat on the other. However, given the the residual anger in the Philippines over the Japanese occupation, would there have been a large enough market in the Philippines for the Japanese to export knives there in the 50’s and 60’s (especially for blades stamped with Japanese characters)? Also keep in mind that this is not a general purpose household knife. It is plainly a fighter. So, taking into account the relative economic status of both countries in the 50’s and 60’s, would a Japanese factory have been able to produce a niche knife at a price point competitive with local Philippine blacksmiths? Lastly, wouldn’t a country of origin stamp be required for the Philippines as it was in the US?

    There is one thing I am absolutely certain about. The entire hilt is original to the piece. The grooves on the wooden section echo the grooves on the steel ferrule and the groove on the steel pommel. The pommel and steel guard are very solidly in place and It would have been impossible to replace the wooden section without first removing the pommel. Since the ferrule and the wooden section revolve freely around the tang, I find it very unlikely that someone careful enough to reattach the guard and pommel so firmly would be sloppy enough to replace the wood section and the steel ferrule so loosely. The wooden section was professionally turned. This is no happy homeowner job. The grooves are sharply and precisely cut. The wood is very hard and completely without figure. It appears to be some sort of boxwood.

 

Sincerely,

RTillman

[Bugyotsuji]

Rob, can you get a clearer shot or two of the concave diamond cartouche contents?

[Brian]

The "Shangahi Dagger" was the precursor to the FS, and is entirely unlike this item. The 'X-Dagger' is well researched and completely different. There is no relation between them. I see no reason to assume this is wartime production for many reasons. There is no record of any Japanese factories making fighting knives for anyone during that time. I come across boxes of assorted knives with various shapes, sizes and non-standard features in my knife dealings. The country of origin markings don't apply to any of them, since they were never commercial imports, but picked up in native markets and brought back by people visiting the East. I suspect you'll find stuff like this in the markets of many countries if you had visited way back. The hilt is a simple turned one, easy to make, and likely done in a small factory turning out souvenirs. No serious fighting knife would have the handle able to turn in the hand. And a wartime made item is unlikely to have had a factory stamp, and to supply whom?
Philippines production is possible. So is Thailand, Malaysia etc. Why it has a Japanese stamp, I do not know. As mentioned, could easily be a 1950's Japanese made knife for small scale distribution to tourists or visitors. 
Or a repurposed blade for something reshaped and fitted with that hilt. Another possibility is Brazilian manufacture...it resembles some of the hilts on knives from there made locally, and since there was a huge Japanese population, that could explain the markings. 

[Ratill]

Piers D,

I tried repeatedly but couldn’t get a better shot. Even under hand lens magnification the character inside the diamond is unclear. It appears to have been badly stamped. Sorry.

 

Brian,

    Member Ed thought that the Shanghai dagger was similar enough to mine to bring it to my attention and the examples I saw online looked similar enough to my dagger for me to believe it could have been inspired by the Shanghai dagger.

    The conundrum I find with my knife boils down to two things that should be mutually exclusive: 1, the asymmetrical grind (one side beveled/one side flat) and 2, the Japanese blade stamp. I collect mainly from South East Asia, the Pacific (especially Philippines and Indonesia), the Indian subcontinent, and North Africa. I have been collecting for many years, and while I know that there are other asymmetrically ground blades around the world (eg the Chinese bat jam dao and the Assam region Katchin dao) they are, save for in the Philippines, few and far between. Furthermore, these non-Philippine examples are all traditional blade forms that predate the 20th century.

    My knife is plainly a 20th century style that shows western influence, has an asymmetrical grind, and carries Japanese blade stamps. It doesn’t add up. The presence of an asymmetrical grind on a western influenced 20th century blade disqualifies it for anywhere else but the Philippines. You won’t find that combination of features in Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil or anywhere else. If we contend that the blade was made in the 1950’s-60’s we then have to explain the presence of Japanese characters on a blade especially made for a country where cultural and economic factors (as I have previously described) argue against acceptance of anything Japanese. Given the Japanese government’s strict knife and sword regulations, I can’t believe domestic sale of a fighting knife would be allowed (whether it be for tourists, visitors, or anyone else). It is also hard for me to accept that an asymmetrical blade would be sold as a souvenir item unless that type of blade was culturally relevant to the country selling it.

    You have stated that, “No serious fighting knife would have the handle able to turn in the hand”. Actually, save for the very archaic keris buda, all Indonesian keris have a rat tail tang which can allow the blade to turn in the hilt. In fact, there are two indents on the base of all keris blades called pectin. These indents are there to accommodate the thumb on one side and the index finger on the other to pinch the blade and keep it from turning during use. I very frequently see keris for sale with the hilt on backward. If interested in buying one, I always see if I can turn the hilt. If I can’t, that means it has been glued on in the wrong position (possibly with epoxy which is a disaster).

    The wood of the hilt on my knife is, as you say, “a simple turned one, easy to make” but it is also very well done and of very good wood. There is nothing tourist or souvenir about any of the components. Most probably, the wood and ferrule on my knife had originally been glued with some sort of cutler’s resin which simply failed after so many years. If my blade was repurposed, it was repurposed from another asymmetrically ground blade.

 

Sincerely,

Tillman

[Brian]

I own many very good quality Keris. They are hardly termed "fighting knives" although they could be used as such. But the hilts on them were not designed to be free rotating. The rotation comes from a loose fit, or incorrect fitting. They are usually fairly firmly fitted. Not sure why you think the asymmetrical grind is so relevant here. It's not made to any traditional pattern, and I still see a tourist market product here. The handle is small industrial production, on a lathe. Likely a small operation. None of this points to anything aside from small scale production in a small factory shop. I am not sure if you know the huge knife market coming out of Japan in the 70's onwards. Literally tens of thousands of knives being made for the Western market. Boot knives and fighting knives were prevalent. This could have been made at any time, except wartime. I think you're overthinking cultural and political influences on this. As you well know, collecting African and Eastern edged weapons, the market is flooded with various designs that are not 100% traditional, for the ever growing tourist market. The fact that no similar knives are known to militaria collectors anywhere, shows that this was small scale or tiny factory production not made for combat use. I still suspect this is a reshaped blade from a larger piece, that has been repurposed into something tactical. But likely we will never know. Perhaps post it on Viking Swords or Bladeforums and ask Bernard Levine too. 

[Ratill]

    Your Levine suggestion is very tempting but since the appraisal cost is as much as I paid for the knife, I'll have to think about it. Curiosity may get the better of me, though. If I do go through with it, I just hope that the information provided will answer the questions I have posed in this thread. I'll let everyone know what I found out.

    I also have many very good quality keris and from what I have read, keris were worn and used as civilian weapons. Although hilts were sometimes glued in place. they were most commonly secured by a strip of cloth wound around the tang to provide a tight fit to the hilt. The resulting friction fit is tight enough as long as the blade is not subjected to much torque force. In a fight however, the user would be well advised to choke up on the blade to keep it from twisting. Since I have never seen a keris without pecitan, there is probably general agreement among makers and users that the feature is necessary. 

    An asymmetrical grind on a 20th century blade showing western influence is, as far as I know, something exclusive to the Philippines. I am not certain how well received it would be anywhere else. For example, I have a reasonably large collection of "Philippine Bowies" made throughout the Northern Philippines just after the war for sale to US troops. In every instance save one, the blades are symmetrically ground. And, since I grew up in the US during the 50's-60's, I can say that I never saw an asymmetrically ground knife for sale and I don't think the typical American man of that time period would think of buying one even if it were available.

    I could certainly accept Philippine production of my knife for post war sale to tourists and US servicemen were it not for two things. None of the aforementioned "Philippine Bowies" that I have (or have seen) appear to have been factory made. The other thing of course is the presence of Japanese characters on the blade.

    I don't see this blade as being cut down and repurposed from a larger blade. The blade width (1.0625" [about 2.6cm]) is about right for the current length. The spine is 9/64" (3.571mm) thick. If the blade had been appreciably longer, it was either mighty thin for its length to begin with or was ground down on the flat side. Grinding would have been too much work for this piece I think.

 

Sincerely,

RTillman