Mune Types

[Lilleskit]

Hello All,

 

Curious... I believe that iorimune is most common form on blades I've seen but, how much do the variety of mune shapes play into a blades era, or region, or school, etc?

 

Kind regards, 

Ken

[PNSSHOGUN]

Mitsumune and Marumune can be Kantei points for particular schools and smiths.

[Bugyotsuji]

Of the very little information that sticks inside my tiny brain, Mitsumune indicates Soshu, and So-Shu Den... and sometimes the tanto of Yamashiro.

[Lilleskit]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Mitsumune and Marumune can be Kantei points for particular schools and smiths.

 

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Of the very little information that sticks inside my tiny brain, Mitsumune indicates Soshu, and So-Shu Den... and sometimes the tanto of Yamashiro.

Are they rare or do i just need to get out more often? I've heard of them but have only seen sketches. 

[Mushin]

I have a Sue Bizen katateuchi by Ukyo no Suke Katsumitsu that has a marumune. A good friend also has a Bizen blade by another smith from Meio that also has one.  They seem to be the exception not the rule. The Katsumitsu is done in suguha with kanji for Kasuga Daimyojin on one side and Hachiman Daibosatsu on the other. Perhaps a special order that included a request for a marumune?  I also believe that the Shinshinto smith Hayama Enshin always had a marumune.

 

[Lilleskit]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Of the very little information that sticks inside my tiny brain, Mitsumune indicates Soshu, and So-Shu Den... and sometimes the tanto of Yamashiro.

 

42 minutes ago, Mushin said:

I have a Sue Bizen katateuchi by Ukyo no Suke Katsumitsu that has a marumune. A good friend also has a Bizen blade by another smith from Meio that also has one.  They seem to be the exception not the rule. The Katsumitsu is done in suguha with kanji for Kasuga Daimyojin on one side and Hachiman Daibosatsu on the other. Perhaps a special order that included a request for a marumune?  I also believe that the Shinshinto smith Hayama Enshin always had a marumune.

 

Very cool! Thanks for sharing but you've reminded me of another qustion. 

When does one know that they're looking at a katateuchi and not a short katana or a long walkazashi. Is it the length of the nakago or something else?

[Mushin]

A katateuchi from the Muromachi generally refers to a sword with a nagasa between 53cm to 66cm. But the key feature was- like you said - a stubby nakago for one-handed fighting. That said, it’s not always easy to see at just a glance because the tangs were often reshaped (they were machi-okuri) in the Edo period to make the nakago longer and more secure for the two-handed fencing styles of the day. You have to look carefully to make sure it’s not a wakizashi or short katana. They were the iconic swords of the Sengoku period and are pretty cool, especially when you find them ubu with only one mekugiana. The one below has the marumune. (The oshigata shows an iori mune and is incorrect.)

[Bugyotsuji]

2 hours ago, Lilleskit said:

 

Are they rare or do i just need to get out more often? I've heard of them but have only seen sketches. 

You need to get out more often. (To sword appreciations, sword shows etc.)

 

I have a kotō Tantō from Sō-Shū (Sagami) with a mitsumune.

[Lewis B]

Were mune styles exclusively used by certain gokuden. Are they reliable kantei features? I've seen several blades by Go Yoshihiro considered one of the founding smiths of the Soshu tradition that are iori-mune. Is mitsu-mune more common on tanto?

[Franco]

One more reason to have Yamanaka's Newsletters revised as it lists the traditions each smith worked in. Many swordsmiths worked and made swords in more than one tradition. A swordsmith working in one tradition, say Mino, might also have made swords in the style of the Soshu tradition using mitsumune. That's only one example. 

Edited Thursday at 10:10 AM by Franco
edit

[PNSSHOGUN]

Marumune is not seen very often, partly due to the considerable difficulty.

[ROKUJURO]

John,

why do you think it could be difficult to make MARUMUNE?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Was always under the impression an angled or flat surface was easier to achieve for a smith, rather than a rounded surface that is consistent the entire length of the Nagasa. The only sword in my collection with Marumune is by Hayama Enshin, it's certainly a unique effect. 

[Lewis B]

I've read mitsu-mune was more difficult to produce and therefore associated with blades of a higher caliber. I've seen it mostly on Tanto and having read in another thread that these short blades were often custom made for important persons during the early Koto, the additional work and expense would be justified.

[Lilleskit]

My memory might be failing me, but I think I've read that marumune was not uncommon on naginata(?). If true, it seems like potential difficulty in forming it wasn't too much of an issue. Are there any known advantages or disadvantages to one form over the others?

[Lewis B]

If the mune was, as it appears it have been, used offensively I imagine the iori-mune might have had some probable advantage with its pointed profile.

[ROKUJURO]

Usually, MUNE are only roughly pre-formed on the anvil. Final shaping is done either with grinding stones or with files.. As the back of the blade is not hardened, it is not hard work. Of course, MITSU MUNE is more and finer work. Even the smallest deviation will be seen immediately! 

Lewis, often, the MUNE was not used offensively, but instead to parry or deflect an opponent's blow. You find KIRI-KOMI regularly on the MUNE.

[Lewis B]

20 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Lewis, often, the MUNE was not used offensively, but instead to parry or deflect an opponent's blow. You find KIRI-KOMI regularly on the MUNE.

Yes, the mune was often used defensively but according to the Nihontocraft Masahide paper, its use offensively was common practice yet rarely discussed in Western texts, and the smith would forge the blade with this application in mind. 

This is the relevant section:

 

 As for the use of the mune side of the blade in combat, this was a common tactic that was very effective in delivering a non lethal blow. Much like a "warning shot" in our frontier days or simply a mild punitive action. In many documented sword tests the mune as well as the sides of the blade were given specific and deliberate attention to make certain it could withstand the abuse of being used this way. Thus the sword is to be a complete weapon able to used in a variety of ways depending on the situation at hand.

 

https://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

[Lilleskit]

 

4 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Yes, the mune was often used defensively but according to the Nihontocraft Masahide paper, its use offensively was common practice yet rarely discussed in Western texts, and the smith would forge the blade with this application in mind. 

This is the relevant section:

 

 As for the use of the mune side of the blade in combat, this was a common tactic that was very effective in delivering a non lethal blow. Much like a "warning shot" in our frontier days or simply a mild punitive action. In many documented sword tests the mune as well as the sides of the blade were given specific and deliberate attention to make certain it could withstand the abuse of being used this way. Thus the sword is to be a complete weapon able to used in a variety of ways depending on the situation at hand.

 

https://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

Very interesting, thanks!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Past topics:
 

 

and
 

 

 

[Kanenaga]

It's my impression that a high proportion of Kamakura-period tanto have mitsumune, perhaps for the reasons mentioned above, or perhaps it was a fashion of the time.

 

Also, I am aware of a Nanbokucho period Aoe daito with marumune. Come to the SF show in August and you can see it (and its friends) for yourself in hand.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Sō-Shū is the area surrounding where the Kamakura government was once located.

Nearer Mt Fuji, a little south-west of Edo, present-day Tokyo.