Kata24 Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Hello all, I recently purchased what it seems to be a Masutsugu katana (early Edo according to my research) and comes with NBTHK papers. However, I am not 100% sure because even though the papers seem legit, I haven’t been able to find this variation online. Ran the inscription of the certificate in AI and came back verifying it is Masutsugu but difficult to read the mei. Could you please take a look and based on your experience tell me what you think? The tsuba is definitely modern or Chinese made but don’t care as long as the blade is authentic. Translation from NBTHK: Certificate of Authentication One Sword: Made by Masatsugu, a Resident of Karatsu, Hizen Province Length: 2 shaku and 2 bu This sword has been examined by the Association and confirmed to be a preserved sword based on the result of the examination, as evidenced by this certificate. June 15, Heisei 27 (2015) Public Interest Foundation Japan Art Sword Preservation Association Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Here's another papered example. Showa-era smith. https://nihontou.jp/.../katana/1565/00.html Edit: Your translation is accurate. But your paper makes no mention of the mei on the opposite side (which looks very much like the inscription on the sword at the Nihontou.com link above. So, when I first posted this I didn't have any doubts about your sword or paper, but now, I'm not so sure. The sword you posted has the same inscription as the one on the "nihontou" site, but the paper is different. The one on the Nihontou site has a paper that correctly matches the inscription on the sword tang, and notes a size of 2 shaku, 2 sun, 1 bu. Your paper doesn't match your tang, and your paper notes a size of 2 shaku and 2 sun (but its a funny notation for the 2 sun.... its got an inexplicable "0" in front of it). And...weren't they using actual photographs in Heisei 29 (which is the date on your paper) and NOT hand-drawn oshigata? I think your paper may be, um, problematic. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 George, Steve always does a great job translating signatures even with less than perfect photos. But you could also do your part to get the best reading/translating support from our side, if you post pictures of the NAKAGO - always right from above - tip straight upwards - with light from the side - against a dark background. That would make reading much easier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Reverse side of your sword says 皇紀二千六百年五月 護国 Imperial year 2600, May. Protect the country Imperial year 2600 is 1940 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Normally I don't comment on swords like this. Quick opinions. Sword looks oil quenched. The oshigata of the nakago looks very amateurish at best. Regards, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kata24 Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 8 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said: George, Steve always does a fine job translating signatures even with less than perfect photos. But you could also do your part to get the best reading/translating support from our side, if you post pictures of the NAKAGO - always right from above - tip straight upwards - with light from the side - against a dark background. That would make reading much easier! My apologies and thank you for the guidance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kata24 Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 21 minutes ago, SteveM said: Here's another papered example. Showa-era smith. https://nihontou.jp/.../katana/1565/00.html Edit: Your translation is accurate. But your paper makes no mention of the mei on the opposite side (which looks very much like the inscription on the sword at the Nihontou.com link above. So, when I first posted this I didn't have any doubts about your sword or paper, but now, I'm not so sure. The sword you posted has the same inscription as the one on the "nihontou" site, but the paper is different. The one on the Nihontou site has a paper that correctly matches the inscription on the sword tang, and notes a size of 2 shaku, 2 sun, 1 bu. Your paper doesn't match your tang, and your paper notes a size of 2 shaku and 2 sun (but its a funny notation for the 2 sun.... its got an inexplicable "0" in front of it). And...weren't they using actual photographs in Heisei 29 (which is the date on your paper) and NOT hand-drawn oshigata? I think your paper may be, um, problematic. The papers do seem sketchy to me. Thank you for confirming my doubts. Luckily I can still push back and cancel the purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kata24 Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 11 minutes ago, SteveM said: Reverse side of your sword says 皇紀二千六百年五月 護国 Imperial year 2600, May. Protect the country Imperial year 2600 is 1940 Thank you again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Ekholm Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Steve is correct and I believe the NBTHK paper is fake. However I must admit it seems to be a good fake. Here are some things explained that I see as problematic. 1. Like Steve said if there is signature on both sides, then there will be oshigata or picture of both sides of the nakago. 2. NBTHK stopped using oshigata in mid Showa 62 (1987), after that they use pictures. 3. While uncommon as the length is so slighty above X shaku NBTHK actually uses 0 on the paper when it is X shaku but under 1 sun and features X bu. 4. The number of the paper is hidden in the picture, however it seems to have 6 numbers. Hozon papers for blades from 2015 have 7 numbers, 300XXXX and very late in the year they start to be 301XXXX. 5. There actually was no Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon session for blades in 6th month of 2015. The blade sessions around that time were in May (5th month) and July (7th month) Out of curiosity where did you purchase this sword? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kata24 Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 18 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said: Steve is correct and I believe the NBTHK paper is fake. However I must admit it seems to be a good fake. Here are some things explained that I see as problematic. 1. Like Steve said if there is signature on both sides, then there will be oshigata or picture of both sides of the nakago. 2. NBTHK stopped using oshigata in mid Showa 62 (1987), after that they use pictures. 3. While uncommon as the length is so slighty above X shaku NBTHK actually uses 0 on the paper when it is X shaku but under 1 sun and features X bu. 4. The number of the paper is hidden in the picture, however it seems to have 6 numbers. Hozon papers for blades from 2015 have 7 numbers, 300XXXX and very late in the year they start to be 301XXXX. 5. There actually was no Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon session for blades in 6th month of 2015. The blade sessions around that time were in May (5th month) and July (7th month) Out of curiosity where did you purchase this sword? Ebay (I know it is not recommended and jumped the gun - learning experience). Everything looks sketchy and seller is not even responding. I’ll just report the sale to ebay and get my money back. Thank you very much again for the observations. I will work on my impulsive buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 2 hours ago, Kata24 said: Thank you very much again for the observations. George: Here is the link to an excellent article on NBTHK papers if you haven't seen it already. Also, look closely at the areas indicated by the arrows. You should see two very small brown kanji for sword in that line. http://www.nihontocr...se_sword_papers.html John C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 To me the nakago looks artificially aged. And the polish looks off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluckdaddy76 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 If this is from seller Shintou13 or something close to that, be very careful. I had some free time at work this week and was able to browse everywhere. I saw this person had a bunch and some of them you could tell the papers did not match the sword just from the ad. Many of the blades looked very suspect too, excellent condition with no starting bid and papers? They also looked just not quite right from the photos in regard to many of the hamons. Hope it works out for you and you don't burned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kata24 Posted March 15 Author Report Share Posted March 15 Quick update, seller allowed me to cancel and I got a refund. I won’t deny I was sweating and I’ll take this as a learning experience. Once again, thank you all for the assistance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kata24 Posted March 15 Author Report Share Posted March 15 59 minutes ago, cluckdaddy76 said: If this is from seller Shintou13 or something close to that, be very careful. I had some free time at work this week and was able to browse everywhere. I saw this person had a bunch and some of them you could tell the papers did not match the sword just from the ad. Many of the blades looked very suspect too, excellent condition with no starting bid and papers? They also looked just not quite right from the photos in regard to many of the hamons. Hope it works out for you and you don't burned. Yes, you are correct. I looked at the papers very closely and they all looked strange. From the other swords he/she was selling, I was able to spot a chinese fake regardless if it had papers (all thanks to other posts in this site). Also, all swords had the same imperfection around the nakago, which seemed strange. Regardless, I didn’t get burned. Could be this person doesn’t know exactly what he is selling and was an honest mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Glad to hear you got a refund, George. So many times new collectors get burned by dodgy sellers, best to take this as a learning experience and buy from a trusted dealer or find something in the sale section here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45691-need-expertise-and-advise-please/?do=findComment&comment=473503 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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