Help with Identification on Suit of Armour - Reply To Uwe and Shogun 8

[Bob61]

Hello Gentleman

 

Thank you for the information on identification. The suit of armour sits on a wooden stand and I have never taken it apart due to fragility and age. I am attaching a couple more photos of the suit for upon inspection, I noted that it is hinged on one side. Can you possibly give me some advice as to the best way to disassemble it and I will gladly provide detailed photos of each individual piece. In my original post, if you will note, I held up a tanto scabbard with the matching fabric, which is unusual, is it not? My question was with regards to this, is, this particular tanto was used in the movie, Shanghai Nights, featuring Jackie Chan, Owen Wilson and Lucy Liu. I am wondering if it would sell better as a matching set? What do you guys think? The only reason for this thought, was that the fabric matched. Just wondering.

 

Please be patient with me, I am not computer literate and am having some troubles uploading multiple photos can anyone explain what I am doing wrong? Or can I attach via a link on google drive? 

 

Cheers and much thanks

Bob

Edited August 31, 2023 by B Rae
Photos.

[uwe]

It’s quite easy to disassemble the set, Bob. The stand itself looks wrong, hence the display appears sloppy.
About the sword and the armor. It’s quite unusual that the lacing (in this case leather?!) corresponds with the cover of the kozuka slot on a saya, but that not necessarily creates a connection between the tanto and the particular armor! Too many questions have to be answered before. For example, is the odoshi-ge original, is this gusoku a matching set, do sword and armor are match in time…etc.
As mentioned before, we need more pics (also from the tanto in question) to make a proper judgment!

 

[Bob61]

Hi Uwe

 

Thank you so much for the prompt reply. I understand what you are saying about the tanto. Just wondering (the fabric is what got me). No problem. I have posted more photos and you will see my response, I am not good at this. So please be patient. Can you please provide more guidance on how to safely disassemble the piece, so I can send you the proper photos.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

 

[Bob61]

Hello Gentleman

 

I have now taken a number of photos for your reference on the Iyozane suit of armour? As well as, the tanto. Any thoughts as well as a estimate of value would be greatly appreciated everyone. Thanks for all the help.

 

Cheers,

Bob

 

 

https://drive.google...Vg3HNX3W?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google...Jz25Q5JY?usp=sharing

[uwe]

A lot pics!

So you already managed to disassemble the armor, good! I will be on a symposium this weekend, so gimme some time…

The “tanto” is made of a shortened, originally significantly longer, blade and the whole seems to be a later marriage. But I leave this to our sword experts here!

 

[Bob61]

Hi Uwe

 

Yes, I took a good look and very gently attacked! Thank you so much, I am looking forward to hearing your response. I will ask the swords guys here about the tanto. Have a great time and we will hopefully talk soon.

 

Cheers

Bob

[uwe]

Well, let's start...

The helmet is an Etchû zunari-kabuto. It's distinctive shape is typical for the Hosokawa clan. Also the hanpô, an Etchû-bô, fits with that. Attached to this type of zunari-kabuto is usually a shikoro without fukigaeshi, at which the lames are covered in thin leather (a technic called kawa-tsuzumi). Aditionally is the lowermost lame edged with a narrow leather band (kawa-fukurin). As evident in your case!

 

I will continue with sangu and dô later on...

 

Ok, the sangu.

The sangu consists of sleeves (kote), thigh protection (haidate) and shin protection (suneate). Since the latter is probably missing, one would have to speak of nigu here. Regardless, due to the style, kote, like haidate, can also be categorized as Etchû. In addition, all parts have the same base fabric (ieji) and thus forming an original set that belongs together.

 

So far so good, the cuirass, a Yokohagi nimai-dô, is a bit strange and needs more detailed considerations....tomorrow...

 

[Bob61]

 

 

Hi Uwe

 

Thank you for the information. From what I can ascertain, you feel that the suit is genuine and mostly complete? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the Yokohagi nimai-dô? Can you please tell me if the mon on the hand guard is from that clan? Or, does is not have any significance to it? I am having trouble finding anything with that particular design. I literally know nothing about this suit of armour and I truly appreciate your help and knowledge.

 

Thank you, talk soon.

 

Bob

[Bazza]

No one has mentioned the bear fur trimming on the haidate.  I know nussink (as a certain guard was wont to say) except having a niggling memory that bear fur was 'macho'???

 

BaZZa.

[uwe]

7 hours ago, Bazza said:

No one has mentioned the bear fur trimming on the haidate.  I know nussink (as a certain guard was wont to say) except having a niggling memory that bear fur was 'macho'???

 

BaZZa.

 

I haven't been on that point yet, Barry....

This trimming is called "ue-kuma-ge" (kuma = bear) and in this case it's on the kusazuri not on the haidate

 

[uwe]

Now to the last piece of the set.

 

As mentioned above, it is a yokohagi nimai-dô, i.e. a two-part cuirass in which the lamellae are arranged horizontally.
Judging by the pictures, the armor plates are made of hardened leather (nerikawa), except the side plates under the armpits (wakiita) and the
respective upper plates (munaita/oshitsuke no ita). These are probably made of iron. Unfortunately, I can't see if they're covered in leather
or only coated with urushi. The lacing is also made of leather (here, e-gawa) and shows two different patterns (perhaps a restoration/repair?).
On the shoulder bridges (watagami) is an unarmored collar (eri-mawashi) attached, in which the same carrier fabric (ieji) as on the "nigu" was used.

 

There is still a lot to be said about the special features of the construction, but I think that would lead too far...

 

 

Here's a comparison to the armor type I was reffering to in my initial post:

 

 

[Bob61]

Hi Uwe

 

Thank you ever so much for your very technical description. Much appreciated. My overall gist of it, is that it is a almost complete set of armour. I have attached a copy of photos that was not in the original post, the first is in reference to what you had stated about the lamellae. Yes, the armour plates under the armpits are made of iron with a coating. As I stated earlier, I am not sure if this suit had been restored or repaired, not since I have had it. The ue-kuma-ge comments are interesting. I have noticed that this is not common? 

 

I would love to see this piece restored to it's former glory. However, it is beyond my range at this time. I do need to sell this piece and I would prefer to not break it up. If you are interested in purchasing this piece, I am open to offers.

 

Thank you once again for the help, it has been invaluable. This is a great forum with great people, who are extremely knowlegable and professional.

 

 

(Image No 1453 and 1454. It would not allow me to upload any photos so I have attached it to the original google drive).

 

https://drive.google...Vg3HNX3W?usp=sharing

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Cheers,

Bob

[uwe]

Hello Bob,

 

hmm, after rereading my comments I’ve to admit that they’re a tad too technical, indeed….

To sum up the above, I dare say that it seems a matching set (only suneate missing) that can be placed in the proximity of the Hosokawa family, worn by them or their retainers. Although this type might be later adopted by other families, the creating of the basic model goes back to Hosokawa Sansai (or Tadaoki, 1563-1646). 
 

As you said, the whole is worth a restoration. It is in quite acceptable condition so a “touch up” wouldn’t cost a fortune. The problem is, that there are very few professional restorers outside of Japan. I actually only know two, here in Europe!

 

Unfortunately, my very limited space (tiny house) is already occupied by armors and helmets. Already too much in the eyes of my beloved wife (😢)…..

 

Cheers

Uwe

 

[Bob61]

Hi Uwe

 

Thank you for your message. You have made it so much easier, I really do appreciate it. I now have a basis on which I have a firm handle on what I have. This has been an endeavour that I have really be trying to get answers to for awhile. I never really thought of forums, only facebook (which was not informative at all). This forum, has been a great place. I love the professionalism of it and the intelligence of the contributors. I have a large collection of Japanese items, most of which I know little about. This was a inheritance from my wife's late husband, who was a avid collector of everything!! It has taken years to get here, so thank you ever so much for all your help. By the way, my neighbor's name is Uwe. He's a great person to. I understand what you are saying about purchasing more, as I am trying to downsize my collection. I just thought that since you had helped me so much, that it was only fair that you receive the first offer. I do have to research pricing, unless you could offer a reasonable estimate, as I'm sure you are aware, this has been part of the problem. I do have a sum in mind, but I'm a little hesitant as I do not want to be out of the ball park one way or another. I was thinking of posting it for sale on this forum or on E-Bay. I recently sold a Aikuchi on E-Bay, first one, was a little nervous, but things worked out well. So onwards upwards, so to speak. Thank you once again for your understanding and help. I can now properly list this item with a decent description, which is always important. Take care and keep up the great work!!

 

Cheers

Bob

[uwe]

Thanks for your kind words, Bob!

You can pm me what you have imagined the price to be if you are unsure...

 

Greetings to my namesake!

 

Uwe