katana inquiry with cutting test.

[dimitri]

Good evening everyone, I am looking for information regarding a katana with test cut, there is 1 on an auction site and I would like more information, is it common to see one for sale, after if there is no certificate, is it serious or a previous owner has lost it. I saw a katana Signed Hizen no Kuni Tadayoshi, how much would you estimate it? the site announces 7500€ 8500€, is it credible? I never asked myself the question and I wanted to have your opinion?
Thanks in advance.
dimitri.

[Alex A]

Hi

 

First off, Id be asking myself why a Hizen Kuni Tadayoshi (top notch smith and always a target for gimei) with a cutting test is for sale on an auction site without mention of Shinsa papers ?

 

 

 

 

[Guest Simon R]

If it's too good to be true - it is.

[dimitri]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Salut

 

Tout d'abord, je me demanderais pourquoi un Hizen Kuni Tadayoshi (forgeron de premier ordre et toujours une cible pour les gimei) avec un test de coupe est en vente sur un site d'enchères sans mention de papiers Shinsa ?

 

 

 

 

Exactly my question, I don't know what to think about it, I thought this kind of article was unaffordable for my purse, I looked at the prices for the sale of the blacksmith's sword and it is far from what can be sold, I can put the link but I thought more gimei than real.
Hence my main question, do test cut sabers sell quite often and at approximately what price range?
THANKS.

[Alex A]

Expensive, see Katana by well known smiths 10k upwards

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-bizen-suke-fujiwara-munetsugunbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/

 

Sometimes you see wakizashi for half that.

 

Also, on rare occasion you come across a good private deal. Always a compromise though, the sword is mediocre or it was tested by a lesser known sword tester etc etc.

 

Most folks just say buy the sword, not the inscription.

 

Depends what you like.

 

[dimitri]

https://www.catawiki.com/fr/l/70242761-long-arriere-tadayoshi-hizen-katana-avec-test-de-coupe-gold-inhall-epee-japonaise-epee-antique-le-fer-japon-debut-de-la-periode-edo

 

Thank you for the link Alex.

Indeed, I expect more than 10,000 euros for a sword. thank you for having answered me, here is the lee, it is strange, I think that indeed we can have a chance if it is an acquaintance or that there remains a polishing to be done .... But on a sale to auction I do not know, the expert can give his feelings but then only on photos, he did not have it in his hands. Afterwards, it is the seller who may want this price and therefore get rid of it as soon as possible. I don't understand .

[Alex A]

Was just thinking of the possibility a later generation but you have to take into account the date on the cutting test write-up.

 

Not saying there are no winners when it comes to auctions but im not the optimistic type and don't have money to gamble

 

Maybe an expert that has it in hand may be more confident,.

 

Could never bid on what's available and without taking a real deep trip through the books. not for me.

 

 

[dimitri]

Alex for me too, I'm not saying I can't but there's one at home who wouldn't be happy I think. But above all no certificate for such a saber, this is what slows it down.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Dimitri,

With regard to the cutting test, here's one done in the same year by the head of the Yamano family at that time, the famous Yamano Ka'emon Nagahisa.

 

https://www.samuraisword.com/gallery/cutting-tests/juyo-yasusada/

 

I'd be suspicious that the sword tester did not include his personal name or seal in the inscription. Here's an article focusing on the Yamano family and all of the tests are signed with the personal name and seal of the tester:

 

https://nihonto.com/about-the-characteristics-and-rules-of-kinzogan-setsudan-mei-with-a-focus-on-the-yamano-family/

 

But as Alex says, the lack of authentication papers is the killer. Adding the name of this smith and a spurious cutting test to a generic katana will vastly inflate the value of this blade in the minds of those hunting for buried treasure and should be avoided or, if you go ahead (please don't), you should pay no more than you would for an unsigned katana from this era.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another aspect to note is the gold inlay work of the cutting test is fairly crude in comparison to authentic examples.

[dimitri]

Thank you very much for all your comments and reviews. That's why I preferred to ask the question on this forum because I knew I was going to have the end of the word.
Thank you very much 🙇‍♂️🙏🙏

[Alex A]

Had a concern whether the inlay was actually gold. A lot of the time you see its been picked out.

 

Judging from the images i cant tell whether its actually gold,  gold colour or even brass?. Its something that I've never really thought about. Has anyone ever seen a brass inlay on a nakago?, curious.

 

Ps, Dimitri, good book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tameshigiri-History-Development-Japanese-Testing/dp/1312327030

 

Cant remember but maybe the answer to my question is in there, will take a look.

[Alex A]

To answer my own question and for anyone also curious, p247

 

Inlaid in gold or silver

 

red lacquer or gold lacquer..............rather rare he states for cutting test results.

 

Don't see brass.

 

 

[Alex A]

Ps, didnt know there were more pics of the blade, just noticed.

 

Lots of masame hada, not what the Tadayoshi school was known for. 

 

From memory, read of it in the shinogi-ji sometimes.

 

 

[dimitri]

Thank you Alex, I greatly appreciate what you have done for me in research and your appreciation on the subject, just like the other forum members. That's nice of you.
Thank you very much gentlemen.

[Larason2]

The hada is pretty nice, that's hard to fake. The habaki has two tones and textures of metal, you don't get that on a reproduction. The polish is also very good quality, so it was probably done by a togishi. The carving is middling quality though. You'd expect better strokes from a true expert. There's also no yasurimi on the nakago. If Japanese smiths can accomplish gorgeous yasurimi on a nakago, why don't they? I'm not sure about the "gold" engraving, but it looks engraved, not fake. I don't think I've seen enough to tell the difference between gold and other similarly coloured metals. So it's a good quality piece, but if by tadayoshi, it's probably a student/early piece. The suguha hamon isn't my choice, but it's a legitimate form of hamon. Sometimes masters have their students accomplish weird blades to teach them something, and sometimes a smith will try out a different design early in their career to see how it would turn out. It's a nice blade, made by a good smith. If that's worth the price of admission I'd go for it. Even if it is tadayoshi it's not a masterpiece. It looks Japanese made, anyway. I don't think you'd find a reproduction with this quality much cheaper than this.

[dimitri]

 

28 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

Le hada est plutôt sympa, c'est difficile à simuler. Le habaki a deux tons et textures de métal, on n'obtient pas ça sur une reproduction. Le polissage est également de très bonne qualité, il a donc probablement été réalisé par un togishi. La sculpture est cependant de qualité moyenne.....

 

The most surprising is the lack of certificate, I'm not saying that for a saber it's mandatory but a good blacksmith and cutting test I think it's the minimum, I held back on this one, there will be another occasion, that's what you have to say to yourself.

[Larason2]

Around here in the US/Canada, there are a lot of unpapered blades, though it's true that's uncommon for one recently made. More likely the paperwork was lost. If it hadn't been, it would probably have been worth a lot more. I'm sure whoever is selling it is kicking themselves for that! That's why you always keep the paperwork with the blade. Lesson learned!

[dimitri]

Thank you