Who was ToyoSuke?

[Jcstroud]

After a multitude of searches of Sword Smith lists and kai gunto and shin gunto blades I finally came up with a possibility that maybe.......in the 1943 gendai tosho ninki banzuke jyungenro  I have found a swordsmith by the name of. TOMITA SUKEHIRO (TOKYO)   Apon

Viewing at least 6 of his swords along with a masahiro,a masanao all having the same mixed army navy souvenir fittings,same in black same snapped off kiri nakago near Identicle........I have been looking for years to solve the mystery .any help would be greatly appreciated.  Due to the uniformity of construction I am thinking they all possibly worked together along with name association.   Help!

[Jcstroud]

On 10/26/2021 at 9:40 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Wanted to post this one, found on THIS GUNS.RU THREAD.

It has an undated blade with mei: Takayama To Masahiro made this; with small Toyokawa anchor.

 

From the shadowing of the kasaki, it appears to have the fat tip of the Takayama styled blade.  So the question is - did Masahiro continue to work for the Tenzoshan factory making blades for the souvenir operation, or was this a surplus blade?  It is the first Takayama-to I've found in one of these.

 

The growing variety of smiths and blades I'm finding in them seems to support the idea that at least some of the over 8,000 souvenirs they sold had surplus blades.

 

[Jcstroud]

 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

13 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

This is one of them.also

 

[Jcstroud]

Toyosuke #45

[Jcstroud]

Please help me solve this.thank you

[Jcstroud]

Could this be kanesuke?

[SteveM]

No, that's Toyosuke. 

 

Your third post in this thread is a Takayama-tō (navy sword made at the Takayama forge). It has nothing to do with Toyosuke, as far as I know. 

 

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of documentation regarding Toyosuke. He just seems to be one of those smiths who left us a few swords, but left no records indicating anything about him personally. It happens from time to time. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:51 PM, Jcstroud said:

 

 

 

John,

Do you have more photos of this one?

 

I have another takayama-to on file made by Masahiro.

[Jcstroud]

Picture is from griffin auctions recent sale

[Jcstroud]

I know it seems to be a weak link at best but it  was an attempt  to show the overwhelming similarities in construction,markings,kosherai ,nakago characteristics and paint and mixed fittings .all combined indicates a possible connection not to mention the same small circled anchor stamp.   I am aware that i seem to be confusing my topics.  Very thankful for your confirmation! Once again. I seem to be obssessed with finding. The truth .

3 hours ago, SteveM said:

No, that's Toyosuke. 

 

Your third post in this thread is a Takayama-tō (navy sword made at the Takayama forge). It has nothing to do with Toyosuke, as far as I know. 

 

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of documentation regarding Toyosuke. He just seems to be one of those smiths who left us a few swords, but left no records indicating anything about him personally. It happens from time to time. 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

Thought I would post a few more photos of    Toyosuke's other works for comparison.....

[Jcstroud]

A few I missed

....

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks John.  That makes 7 I have on file now.

 

Painted numbers:

8

33

45

65

68

81

No paint

No paint

 

And an editorial note - is that Type 98 associated with these?  Seems out of place.

[John C]

7 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Painted numbers

Bruce:

The picture of the one on the wood table...is that number 33?

John C.

[Jcstroud]

The type 98 was originally posted by Macthewhopper a Toyosuke made blade I borrowed from the NLF 

Discussion page 3 by Bruce .Oh and by the way thank you for your help Bruce ! Any one else have any to Toyosuke blade pics or info to share ?

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, John C said:

Bruce:

The picture of the one on the wood table...is that number 33?

John C.

Yes, at least, that's the way I see the number.

Oops, I see I left that out of my post above.  I've edited, and inserted it in the list.

 

And that particular one, "33" in well-used Type 98 fittings, tells me that Toyosuke was working during the war.  Which raises the question - Are the souvenir blades from him war surplus, or was he actively employed in the making of the souvenirs, or both?

 

More questions on this:

- The wartime Type 98 was numbered "33", yet we see souvenirs numbered earlier ("8") and later.  How did this happen?  Was the 33 blade grabbed randomly before war's end and used, while the others sat in a warehouse unused?  Or was 33 refitted after the war by a collector?

 

- I looked at all the nakago jiri I have photos of, and all but one have that same squared-off, but finished look.  Not much evidence of the over-heated metal coloration.  Number 81 is a Takayama-to with full inscription.  And 65 has a traditionally shaped jiri.

 

I think this slightly tips the scale toward these blades being surplus.

[Jcstroud]

Found another on an auction in France named Naturabuy including the canvas bag and all for 1800 euros! 

[Jcstroud]

One more nice one

[Jcstroud]

If you compare this one with the souvenir on page 1 of the NLF Post  you will  find a match !!!!. The bag  ,tassle,mei ,this proves my sword is indeed a souvenir. !!! Sold at the px either in Tokyo or possibly Korea. Which tends to indicate Toyosuke likely worked for the Tenshozan Tanrenjo after the wars end. Maybe unless the blades were surplus from Toyokawa ???

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, very good verification of the very first one with bag and certificate.  Any chance they show a full picture of the nakago, or at least a shot of the jiri (end)?

[Jcstroud]

Latest update on the search for Toyosuke: in the Gendai Toko Meikan:Tomito Shotaro is his real name his art name is. Tokyo Sukehiro  TenKaishi from page 78.in the ohmura study his ranking is jojo saku and received special honors mention. In 1945. He was a student under Horii Taneyoshi at the Tokyo Hanazawa Tanrenjo during the period of 1912-1926.it is an assumption of mine that this was Toyosuke because no other meets all the criteria. If I were making swords for the enemy I too would change my name. No shame in this. He was also titled Black Sword  Master" !

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Latest update on the search for Toyosuke: in the Gendai Toko Meikan:Tomito Shotaro is his real name his art name is. Tokyo Sukehiro  TenKaishi from page 78.in the ohmura study his ranking is jojo saku and received special honors mention. In 1945. He was a student under Horii Taneyoshi at the Tokyo Hanazawa Tanrenjo during the period of 1912-1926.it is an assumption of mine that this was Toyosuke because no other meets all the criteria. If I were making swords for the enemy I too would change my name. No shame in this. He was also titled Black Sword  Master" !

SUKEHIRO (祐弘), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tōkyō – “Tenkeishi Sukehiro” (天奎子祐弘),
“Sukehiro” (祐弘), real name Tomita Shōtarō (富田庄太郎), born January 29th 1891, he signed
also with Sukemitsu (祐光), gō Tenkeishi (天奎子), he studied from 1912 under his grandfather Katō Sanekuni (加藤真国) and worked later as rikugun-jumei-tōshō, kihin-jōi (Akihide), Special Honor Seat at the 6th Shinsaku Nihontō Denrankai (新作日本刀展覧会, 1941)

 

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

.it is an assumption of mine that this was Toyosuke because no other meets all the criteria.

John,

Not disagreeing, but could you fill us in on your reasons for this assumption?  How did you zero in on Sukehiro/Shotaro?

[Jcstroud]

34 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John,

Not disagreeing, but could you fill us in on your reasons for this assumption?  How did you zero in on Sukehiro/Shotaro?

After comparing the yasurime of Toyosuke which is higake or crosshatched to Tomito sukehiro,s which is kesho yasurime I am not so convinced now that they were the same person. Not to mention the kiri cut nakago versus the kuri-jiri nakago .The main reason if you call it that is that you search for the nearest possible text string match, and then compare nakago info to verify.I have searched 7 years and every swordsmith list I can find  and still nothing concrete. Due to the common practice of some to use different names you have to rule out the possibilities.  E.g. To.   First2 letters  second yo last 2 letters mid. Suke.....  closest I could find . Oh well back to the drawing board........

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice to have your experienced research onboard, though!

[Jcstroud]

REST IN PEACE 

 

TOYOSUKE

[Bruce Pennington]

Did you paint the flag, John?

[Jcstroud]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Did you paint the flag, John?

Ha ha ha I know my artwork is bad but.....oh by the way the Toyosuke souvenir for sale in France did not sell and got reposted. I tried to put in a bid but  their website is like mission impossible .fubared if you know what I mean. But 1800 euros is a lot if you ask me would have offered at least a grand or better more with a certificate.

[Jcstroud]

So far this what I do and dont know about Toyosuke so far...all of his blades so far have been suriage or flat cut his  trademark,his nakagos crosshatched all but one so far have been taisabiko antirust steel  ,razor sharp even after 80 years. All but one were in post directive 54 aka end war postwar kamakura special case Kaigunto koshirai configuration. It is possible he was a resident tosho at Toyokawa Naval Arsenal

But not yet verified..the interesting thing is that the anchor stamp used on all but one appear the same 4mm circled anchor with fishhook style barbs seems to indicate Seki mino area Takayama ,Inaba shrine area origin.most are aka souvenir swords sold by Tokyo PX,Pusan Korea .investigation ongoing anyone wishing to help are more than welcomed but critics not.  Thank you.  John