Kantei help

[swordnoob]

9 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Hi Victor,  difficult to tell from that image

 

This might help, see the images.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html

Hi Alex,

 

The hamon is sort of like this. Or were you referring to something else?

 

[Alex A]

Just difficult to see in that image, but now you draw those lines then yes it does go past.

 

In the link i sent you, the third photograph down shows it clear, what i normally look for .

 

Cheers.

[swordnoob]

To be honest, I can't tell whether the hamon goes past the hamachi in that photo or whether that's some polish. Is it at the blue line or the red line?

[Alex A]

Hi Victor, only have a few minutes, 

 

Its the blue line.  Sometimes, can be real difficult to see but quite easy really in that image. Sometimes the shape of the hamon dont help. The nakago is heat treated to remove the hamon so it can be reshaped also.

 

I dont see any reason why folk willing to try cant get to the bottom of this regarding school, trouble is it can be really time consuming, especially if your not familiar with the work. 

 

Look at the school Jacques mentioned, try find a match for hamon and boshi, the hamon is very bright.

 

At the moment, im kind of on the end of the Muromachi going into Edo. Cant ignore that nakago chop and the masame, your sword is full of it in the Shinogi-Ji. Also the mention of dark steel, i will try add a pic of that for you when i get time.

 

After the Muromachi period Mino smiths moved elsewhere and set up shop. It can get confusing as you see older traits mixed with new stuff. Ie, Masame mixed with Mokume.

 

So, i would maybe be looking at smiths like Owari Seki, where you see mokume mixed with masame and also notare mixed with Sanbon-sugi.

 

Early, and just a few thoughts. Maybe look into that school and see if anything comes up online or other Mino offshoots.

 

Ps, not ruling out anything yet, as dont know for sure. Too easy in this game to assume and get it wrong, then make a complete plonker out of oneself online, quite good at that

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

14 hours ago, swordnoob said:

Hi Alex,

 

The hamon is sort of like this. Or were you referring to something else?

 

 

Ok, it's ubu. 

 

That one is suriage

[Alex A]

Actually, now looking at the red lines you draw, strikes me as unusual seeing a gunome pattern there.

 

Makes me wonder about the hamon in that part of the blade.

can we really call it Yakidashi?

 

Wonder if polish has had an effect in that area of the blade maybe

 

 

[swordnoob]

Hi Alex,

Thank you for the detailed responses. I'll definitely look into the school Jacques recommended as well other mino offshoots and owari-seki as you've recommended.

 

Jacques,

Thank you for your insight and the photo. Do you have any others photos of suriage blades with the hamon much closer to the ha (I wonder if shallower yakiba is the correct terminology in this case)? I'm just curious what the visual effect would be and where the hamon around the hamachi would end up

 

In addition, I'll try learning more about the sword after I've gained a bit more knowledge from the books I have arriving soon

[Alex A]

 

 

Hi Victor, boshi good for Owari too, no kaeri, just noticed by chance on a quick search.

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-mumei-owari-seki/

 

Connoisseurs states Ko Maru for Owari.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Hi Victor, boshi good for Owari too, no kaeri, just noticed by chance on a quick search.

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-mumei-owari-seki/

 

Connoisseurs states Ko Maru for Owari.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

The comparison is not relevant this waki is possibly a naginata naoshi one.

 

Victor 

 

Quote

Do you have any others photos of suriage blades with the hamon much closer to the ha

 It wouldn't add anything. What you need to see is the exit of the hamon in relation to the width of the hamon further in the blade. In the case of a suriage nakago, the hamon will enter the nakago at the same level as the one we will see 10 centimeters before (see the picture I posted).
Your sword is ubu and Shinto.  

[Alex A]

Jacques, i was just pointing out that they are out there, 

 

in Owari province, in the fifth year of Kan'ei (E71, ... the béshi is a ch12-maru with hakikake or appears almost as yakitsume with only a very small

 

 lived in Owari ́s Nagoya (名古屋), mokume mixed with masame, ... suguha-hotsure in nie-deki, yakitsume-bōshi with hakikak

 

 

just a quick google

 

Ps, Victor, maybe send it to Shinsa.

[David Flynn]

Personally, I wouldn't send this sword to Japan.    I agree about sending it to Shinsa, but, I would only send it to an American Shinsa.

I don't believe  the quality of this sword, warrants it being sent to Japan.   Another point of American Shinsa.    The examiners are on a time limit and   don't put the time into Mumei Swords as they probably would in Japan.  However, saying that, it would receive  a better opinion than it would receive here.

[Rivkin]

Shinto, Kanemoto style, most likely suriage.

Worth getting papers maybe next year in Chicago if shinsa is going to be active. otherwise its not too valuable.

[swordnoob]

10 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

The comparison is not relevant this waki is possibly a naginata naoshi one.

 

Victor 

 

 It wouldn't add anything. What you need to see is the exit of the hamon in relation to the width of the hamon further in the blade. In the case of a suriage nakago, the hamon will enter the nakago at the same level as the one we will see 10 centimeters before (see the picture I posted).
Your sword is ubu and Shinto.  

Hi Jacques, thank you for clarifying. I think I understand what you mean now. You'd see the hamon continue further in the nakago whenever there's suriage as that's where it originally was prior to shortening (assuming there wasn't some heat treatment that happened during shortening). I guess the only counter example I can think of is if the hamon wasn't wider than the width of the hamachi (I'm not sure if any swords were made that way)

 

Alex, David, and Kirill. Thank you for the shinsa suggestion. I assume you're referring to https://nthkamerica.com/?

[Rivkin]

No, I personally heavily in the NTHK NPO camp, which is Chicago. But its a relatively simple blade (sorry for being honest), any shinsa will handle it.

[swordnoob]

Is this the site http://www.ejapaneseswords.com/Shinsa_Info.html? I'm most likely not going to submit it to shinsa, especially if I have to be there in person as I wouldn't be able to make it.

 

Also, thank you for the honestly. I didn't purchase the sword thinking it'd be the next greatest investment or anything so I don't mind. The purpose of this thread was only to learn more about the sword as there's only so much I can discern on my own (and even that seems to have been mostly incorrect)

[Alex A]

Hi Victor, its a really nice sword, i like it.

 

Not familiar with US shinsa, but perhaps there are still folk around that might take it with them, for a fee.

 

Sometimes, us guys at home can only take it so far with the info resources we have, sometimes just to a sword school. NTHK or whatever seen many more and have much more info.

 

That's only if it bothers you so much. A lesson in the difficulties with swords with no mei. Saying that though, even signed swords can give you the same headaches where you just cant narrow it down to one smith.

 

As said, check out Seki-Owari, im leaning there at the moment,

 

Cheers.

[swordnoob]

Thank you Alex.

 

Coincidentally, I bought an Owari-Seki wakizashi with hozon (along with a meikan-more katana) that should arrive hopefully this month or the next, so I have previously tried searching for more information.

I think I may be taking the wrong approach by searching for Owari-Seki instead of the Owari and Seki schools separately

[Jacques D.]

Smith : Katsukuni. School : Darani. Province : Kaga 

 

Not to say it's the good Smith as this one is a relatively big name but work is similar. Maybe one of his follower or student.