oneshot onekill Posted May 24, 2022 Report Posted May 24, 2022 I just received a nice Muromachi era (I think) Katana. I'm just getting into figuring it out. Its Mumei so there's a LOT to figure out. First thing I noticed are 2 pieces of artwork mounted on opposite sides of Saya. What are they? What would the significance of them be? Here's a close-up picture of one of them. They are both the same but in different places on the Saya. Appears to be a sword, Helmet and other things. Quote
Tensho Posted May 24, 2022 Report Posted May 24, 2022 Look like Menuki to me. Why they're attached to saya I don't know? Edit: Seems to be a popular copy. Yours look nicer. Quote
waljamada Posted May 24, 2022 Report Posted May 24, 2022 I have no idea if this is correct but I've questioned on a wood saya before also with an almost menuki like ornament on it and was told something along the lines of "looks like a merchant's mounts". So maybe that's a thing for merchants? If adhered well and cleanly I think it looks a classy way to spice up a saya Quote
Matsunoki Posted May 24, 2022 Report Posted May 24, 2022 This type of adornment to the saya is (I believe) called a saya kanemono (basically saya decoration). They are very common on the luxurious top end Tanto from the Meiji period…..often of breathtaking quality…..dragons, zodiacal animals…anything that would fit in with the overall theme of the koshirae. Probably appealed more to the wealthy merchants of the Bakumatsu period onwards rather than to the (impoverished) Samurai of the times. However I have seen them added to older swords, possibly to “jazz them up a bit” for sale and also to hide damage to the saya. These ones are often menuki or pouch clasp fittings and can be very nice quality. Many are added outside of Japan…..look for clumsy glue overspill!!! If fitted in Japan the “fit” would be far better. At first glance these ones look like Tachi menuki being reused? Of course…..only imo! Best. Colin . 3 Quote
oneshot onekill Posted May 24, 2022 Author Report Posted May 24, 2022 Thank you for the replies! These seem larger than the Menuki I've seen. They don't appear to have any "overspill" from being crudely glued to the Saya. I think they were attached when the Saya was made but who knows. The rest of the Koshirae and the Tsuba are pretty nice but I can't tell what the Menuki are. I'll try to get a picture of the Menuki as well. I'll be asking for lots of help with this sword so thank you all in advance! 1 Quote
Kurikata Posted May 25, 2022 Report Posted May 25, 2022 Another menuki exemple : https://www.aoijapan.com/menukimumeiunsigned-14/ Quote
oneshot onekill Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Posted May 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Kurikata said: Another menuki exemple : https://www.aoijapan.com/menukimumeiunsigned-14/ Well, that's good to know about. I'll get a couple of close-ups of mine but I believe they are of the same quality as the ones in this auction so that would maybe help me date my Koshirae? I was planning to post close-ups of the parts of the Koshirae anyway. Thank you for finding that! Quote
Matsunoki Posted May 25, 2022 Report Posted May 25, 2022 If yours are the same quality as the one in the latest link it will certainly help with the monetary value of your sword!! However I don’t think it will help date the koshirae…..they have almost certainly been added later. If you look at how the sword would be worn ie cutting edge up, the saya Kanemono have been fitted upside down. I don’t think the Japanese would make that mistake! Also usually, saya Kanemono were only fitted to the side of the saya that faced outward when the sword is worn. One on both sides could be another suggestion of later additions. 2 Quote
oneshot onekill Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Matsunoki said: If yours are the same quality as the one in the latest link it will certainly help with the monetary value of your sword!! However I don’t think it will help date the koshirae…..they have almost certainly been added later. If you look at how the sword would be worn ie cutting edge up, the saya Kanemono have been fitted upside down. I don’t think the Japanese would make that mistake! Also usually, saya Kanemono were only fitted to the side of the saya that faced outward when the sword is worn. One on both sides could be another suggestion of later additions. But are they upside down? The way they are mounted is with the cutting edge up. Just like the sword would have been worn. Or does the fact that the Tsuka is at the bottom mean they are upside down? Could there be other significance to the orientation? I'm just asking. If there's one thing I'm discovering it's that pretty much everything has some significance when it comes to Japanese swords. Also... Just so no one thinks I'm trying to add monetary value to my sword, I'm not interested in monetary value. This sword "spoke to me" the moment I saw it. I know it's far from perfect and not something of great significance. But I love it. I only wish it could talk. Quote
Matsunoki Posted May 25, 2022 Report Posted May 25, 2022 Hi John, I think the sword depicted in the menuki/saya Kanemono is a Tachi sword and thus worn edge down ….and thus I still think put on the saya upside down. Have a look at how the menuki in Bruno’s link is imaged by the Japanese dealer……sword is edge down ie a Tachi. The birds on the fuchi kashira are Kingfisher I think. The theme of the tsuba…..tiger sheltering in bamboo is a popular theme. Often includes a dragon in confrontation with the tiger who is sheltering from the celestial beast in the bamboo. Often the dragon is not shown…..just the tiger and bamboo. I think it shows that even the most powerful earthly beast (tiger) is no match for the Dragon. Others may correct me. I can’t quite make out the actual menuki on your tsuka. I wasn’t suggesting you were concerned with the monetary value….just pointing out that you most likely had a nice bonus….which never hurts does it? The best reason to buy anything is because you like it…..I applaud you. Best. Colin Quote
oneshot onekill Posted July 6, 2022 Author Report Posted July 6, 2022 I think the reason they are mounted in that particular orientation is simply because that is the same way the Saya curves. Probably has no significance. I think I was reading too much into them. Anyone been able to figure out what those Menuki are? A friend suggested they might be a Bridle Reins from a Horse. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted July 6, 2022 Report Posted July 6, 2022 They are probably KANAMONO (not Kanemono), and I think there is the SAGEO of the TACHI depicted. The SEPPA do not fit the mounting. 1 Quote
oneshot onekill Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Posted July 7, 2022 3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said: They are probably KANAMONO (not Kanemono), and I think there is the SAGEO of the TACHI depicted. The SEPPA do not fit the mounting. Agreed that the Seppa are wrong. Too many IMO and one seems to be "new". Tsuba also fits loosely. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted July 7, 2022 Report Posted July 7, 2022 May I add that the wrapping of the SAYA looks a bit like an amateur repair job, but that may well be the photo. 1 Quote
oneshot onekill Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Posted July 7, 2022 29 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said: May I add that the wrapping of the SAYA looks a bit like an amateur repair job, but that may well be the photo. I think it must be the photo. The wrap on either side of the Kurigata? is original. Not a repair job. Quote
O-Midare Posted July 7, 2022 Report Posted July 7, 2022 Here is a Kozuka I have that seems to fit the theme of your Saya ornament. 1 Quote
oneshot onekill Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Posted July 7, 2022 3 hours ago, O-Midare said: Here is a Kozuka I have that seems to fit the theme of your Saya ornament. That's Awesome! Seems to be a fairly common theme. 1 Quote
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