Dating Chinese & Japanese sword Tangs

[bond_fan]

Hi Forum,

 

A friend of mine suggested I ask an opinion on how Japanese appraisers determine the age of Japanese swords based upon the age of the tang He explained to me how an estimate of the age of Chinese swords is made based upon the patina of the tang. He said for their age Japanese sword tangs are nearly not as corroded as Chinese sword tangs. This is probably, because it is so much easier to remove the tsuka from the blade and the complete blade and tang can be cleaned and oiled preserving the condition of the tang, while it is hard to remove the grip from Chinese blades, so the tang tends to exhibit greater deterioration with Chinese swords than their Japanese counter-parts.

 

So pictured are four Chinese dao (Saber) tangs. I am curious to see what forum members think the age of these swords are?

 

dao_tangs1 - Are close-ups of the two on the right of the first photo containing four tangs.

 

dao_tangs4 - Are close-ups of the two on the left.

 

I am also curious to know how Japanese appraisers determine the age of Japanese swords?

 

Thanks!

Tim

[Jean]

Tim,

 

Mainly from workmanship

[stekemest]

During a kantei, the nakago (tang) usually cannot be seen, and it is not very safe to date a sword based upon the tang. It can only give a hint, because usually the older swords have thicker and darker rust, while on newer swords, there is very little rust and the yasurime can be seen much better. But I have also seen shinshinto swords with tangs that looked like koto, so you should be very careful with that. It is much better to date a sword based upon the workmanship of the blade.

As for the chinese tangs you have shown, you should better not take a white background, because there is not much to see on these photos. You should also better ask in a Chinese sword forum, e.g. SFI or else.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Tim, as per my experience with perisan blades too, it's not safe to use the same approach with swords of different

cultures.

 

I would say that there are no homogeneous criteria to be applied because of the sheer number of variables

(steel used, cultural approach to maintenance, period of making, site and type of storage, quality of maintenance in

the near past, type of wood of the handle, quality of the craftmenship, etc.etc.).

 

Just think to this : if you want to see a greatly maintained chinese sword of the Tang dinasty you've to watch into a

Japanese Jinja.

[bond_fan]

Hi forum!

 

Thanks for your responses! Sorry the photos were not good enough to make a determination on the tang age. I hope that my friend will be able to send me better ones and I can post those?

 

I wonder if forum members would agree that Japanese sword tangs show less deterioration due to the ability to remove the tsuka and polish and oil the tang or not more than the quality of the steel or say the climate of Japan? I've seen purported photos of Japanese Katana from 16th & 17th century with file marks still visible on the tang and on a Chinese sword the file marks are likely to have been eaten away after 100 years.

 

It is interesting to note my friend said that Tibetan sword tangs didn't show a lot of deterioration for their age from what he thinks is due to the dry climate in that country.

 

Best regards!

Tim

[Brian]

Hi Tim,

I don't mind a discussion on the aging of Chinese blades vs Japanese, and the reason why Japanese nakago generally age so well, however the dating of your Chinese blades is, I think, beyond the scope of this particular forum.

SFI has a section devoted to the Chinese swords, with some experts in that field, and i would certainly recommend posting the additional pics there.

As for the Japanese tsuka, I think that the fact that they were readily dismounted and maintained would likely be the main reason some are found in such good condition relatively speaking.

I am not sure about the oiling of the nakago, but certainly were you to find yourself in a battle, or having been in a river or other wet circumstance, it would have been easy for a samurai to remove the tsuka and dry off the tang. This would not have been possible with many other weapons. Also, the fact that fittings were changed often means that the nakago likely got due attention each time. They were not too concerned 500 years ago about later using the patina to date the blade

 

Regards,

Brian