shan Posted October 10, 2008 Report Posted October 10, 2008 Hello again, Without potentially annoying anyone any further than i already have.I am sorry to have to ask but you are the experts in this field. I bought this because i thought it had some merit as an earlier Tsuba. The Kozuka Ana has been cut later as i do not believe that the tsuba had any intention of originally being mounted with Kozuka or Kogai. Would this then predate the use of those items? My guess is its akasaku sukashi 17th century but this is based on comparisons to Sotheby`s catologue sales items. Any opinions as to right or wrong and why would be very much appreciated. Many thanks shan Quote
Brian Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 Hi Shan, Nice tsuba, I like it. Not being a tsuba expert at all, I am going to reply on those guys to tell you more. However at first look, it doesn't look Akasaka to me. The design is fairly symetrical and regular. I am not sure I agree that the ana were cut later. The design does suggest to me that they were intended. Goose on the one? The elongated seppa-dai is going to be a kantei point on this one, hopefully someone is able to say more. Regards, Brian Edit to add: Just a rough guess, but could we be looking at Ko-Shoami? Quote
shan Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Posted October 11, 2008 Hi Brian, Yes, now you mention it i can see a goose one one side ,Very observant If you turn the tsuba 90 degrees it could be a landscape as rocks were defined as having holes on there centres in oriental images.(Ming Porcelain etc..) and the other things styalised plant matter? (get ready for the paint/Ink blot Jokes....Its a bird its a plane....Its tsubaman :lol: ) The other Ana looks like it has been modified or opened out a bit (and not particularily well done either)It wasnt a goose but it may have been another animal (was there a fable about a boar and a goose?) This is why i said a later addition because of the reworkings at this ana. I did not think that the ana could also be designed to be iregular as well.I always look at the ana as being standard Kogai or kozuka slots (like most tsuba) I thought this was a tsuba without Ana for the 2 utility items. Thanks Brian regards Shan Quote
Brian Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 Shan, I still think both ana are original, and depict geese. I can see them both, but hard to describe what I see. You see this style of geese on many tsuba. The one you think is altered is a different head position (arching upwards) and you can see the head close to the seppadai. They seem to be soaring above the waves, or one maybe coming in for a landing. Anyone have any thoughts on the school? Brian Quote
Pete Klein Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 I would think one of the Shoami branches as the tsuba is symmetrical with the hitsu designs being reversed. That reversing of design is common in the Shoami works. Quote
Pete Klein Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 I just found this. It will show you a papered example -- same concept: http://cgi.ebay.com/Tsuba-with-NBTHK-pa ... dZViewItem Quote
shan Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Posted October 11, 2008 Thank you all for your opinions so far they are all very useful. Please permit me one more concession and have a look at the way in which both of these Hitsu ana are worked. One is neat and well worked and the other is half hazard and uneven. This is not an anomaly to me; this is different workmanship or more likely a later reworking of the hitsu ana to accommodate something that did not fit the original Ana. My guess is it was enlarged for a wari Kogai or something similar. Forgive me my inexperience. I may be “way off base†on this but its just not the same neat work. Regards shan Quote
Brian Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 Shan, I agree there may have been some slight alteration or damage at some stage, but short of asking the original tsuba maker, all we can do is speculate at what he had as a concept. However, to my eyes, you have the one goose upside down, and what looks like roughness and unevenness is actually the neck and head of the goose. I realise this pic may just be my own bizarre rorschacht test, but I see something along these lines: (Of course I may just be seeing things, but I don't think the alterations are as great as you may think. Just personal opinion) Brian Quote
shan Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Posted October 11, 2008 Hi Brian, You may be right and i agree we will never know. I guess that i may be getting hung up on a mute point. Its a nice item and I would never have seen the duck and or goose without you and your forums help. I now realize that you need to look deeper sometimes to see the subject matter. One of the Shoami branches is the general consensus then? It has a nice feel to it and someone took care to make it well. Its a "Keeper" in my books because of that. Is it an armourers tsuba or a tsuba makers tsuba? Any Idea of its age? or is that hard to judge? many thanks shan Quote
Pete Klein Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 I would say the kogai hitsuana was opened up to allow for a heaftier kogai, probably one of the larger yamagane types. It would explain the shape of the hitsu as normally the kogai hitsu is smaller than the kozuka hitsu. As for Tosho / Katchushi you're mixing apples and oranges. It's neither, it's Shoami. As for age probably early to mid Edo. Quote
shan Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Posted October 11, 2008 I would say the kogai hitsuana was opened up to allow for a heaftier kogai, probably one of the larger yamagane types. It would explain the shape of the hitsu as normally the kogai hitsu is smaller than the kozuka hitsu.As for Tosho / Katchushi you're mixing apples and oranges. It's neither, it's Shoami. As for age probably early to mid Edo. Hi Pete, Not sure where the Tosho/Katchushi was mentioned,Well i can`t find a reference to it in the post ( but i am stupid ,its probably right in front of me). All are saying Shoami or Ko shoami. which looks about right to me.I have Googled it and find some very similar from around the muromachi period. the Kogai theory is along the same lines as i was thinking. Many thanks for your opinion regards shan Quote
Pete Klein Posted October 11, 2008 Report Posted October 11, 2008 "Is it an armourers tsuba or a tsuba makers tsuba"? Armor maker = Katchushi Sword maker = Tosho so it's a tsuba maker's tsuba. Pick up 'Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study' http://www.NCJSC.org It will be of great assistance. Peter Quote
shan Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Posted October 12, 2008 Ah i see,sorry Pete, I thought that Katchushi was a school as well as a type. I probably need to study this a considerable amount more. regards shan Quote
Bungo Posted October 13, 2008 Report Posted October 13, 2008 Shan, the type of tsuba you posted are " hard " to pin down, it could be Shoami, Owari , Kaneyama and other related schools like Ono etc. Just like this one I have.......... when in doubt call it a Shoami milt Quote
shan Posted October 13, 2008 Author Report Posted October 13, 2008 Ah i understand. Thanks for that Bungo regards Shan Quote
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