Tsuba Kantei

[Guido]

Sorry, not one of those amazing iron pieces in which one can see the face of the Virgin Mother with a little imagination, but maybe worthwhile a look anyhow.

[Lorenzo]

Just add some impressions, no conclusions.

 

The seppadai shape, on the ura pic, is very odd, and decentered... also I feel strange seeing that kind of roughness on a alloy piece.. why it is not flat?

 

I have a last remark; I am not expert at all, just usually on the piece I have seen, the nanako follows concentrical lines, in this case are parallel lines.

[Bungo]

" The seppadai shape, on the ura pic, is very odd, and decentered... also I feel strange seeing that kind of roughness on a alloy piece.. why it is not flat? "

 

and I copied one pic from a tsuba book to show what's " worse "...........

 

milt

[Martin]

Hi Guido,

 

very nice piece

I especially like how delicately the Ume tree branches and blossoms are worked out.

As for the Nanako, there are various ways it can be executed (i.e. concentrical, vertical, horizontal, diagonal). I have seen this vertical execution of the Nanako quite often in Ko-Kinko pieces.

 

I have to wonder though, why the Seppa-Dai on the Ura looks a little 'misplaced' (not centered in relation to the Nakago-Ana).

 

Considering the theme, I would be interested to learn more about it. All I know is that an ape trying to catch the reflection of the moon in water is depicted quite often in Japanese art. Any additional stories and/or background information?

 

So I guess this finally is the first step in Guido's metamorphosis to become Tsuba guy :D

 

Well done Guido,

[cccthoth]

Just add some impressions, no conclusions.

 

The seppadai shape, on the ura pic, is very odd, and decentered... also I feel strange seeing that kind of roughness on a alloy piece.. why it is not flat?

 

I have a last remark; I am not expert at all, just usually on the piece I have seen, the nanako follows concentrical lines, in this case are parallel lines.

 

hmmm... why does this piece looks so familiar :lol:

Lorenzo, in regards to your observations you are quite correct, but perhaps going in the wrong direction with your thoughts. The piece is fairly old and thus has a roughness and style that predates that of the "typical" features on a later tsuba. I will say no more as I know what the tsuba is.

 

The theme of monkeys reaching in to water is called Enkouhougetsu (猿猴捕月).

It is an allegory from a buddhist scripture about monkeys futilely reaching toward water trying to get the moon. As the monkey is about to grab the moon, the branch breaks and the monkey falls to his death in the water.

If you get too greedy or ambitious, you will ultimately meet a fate not unlike the monkey reaching for the moon.

The story became quite popular at the end of the Muromachi period.

 

Cyrus

[Brian]

To me it looks like the ana has been altered a few times in its life to mate up with a different remounting project. Opened up for a larger nakago, then peened closed for a smaller one later. At some stage the peening from one side caused the slight offset. Doesn't detract too much from the tsuba in my eyes though. Like Martin, I also noticed the intricate work on the branches and blossoms, and the nanako is well done. Have seen it in linear style quite often, although concentric is more common. I like this tsuba

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Exquisite, Ko-Mino perhaps, waves remind me of Mito in style.

[Martin]

Opened up for a larger nakago, then peened closed for a smaller one later. At some stage the peening from one side caused the slight offset.

 

Brian,

I wonder though, why the Nakago-Ana is 'centered' on the Omote while it is not on the Ura...

 

Maybe the Seppa-Dai (on the second picture) was incised to accomodate the Fuchi... (like in the attached Kiku-Sukashi). But then again it had to be wrongly mounted once... Just a thought...

[docliss]

Beautiful Kinko Mino work - I love it.

 

Interestingly, there is a very similar image of a monkey on #3-4, p.14 in the publication of the Special Exhibition held in 1993 at the Gifu City Museum of History.

 

John L.

[Lorenzo]

I wonder though, why the Nakago-Ana is 'centered' on the Omote while it is not on the Ura...

 

 

Here it is, that's what I was saying. Never talked about the piece is original or not.

 

Just, even if the nakago ana has been readapted, even on the original piece, the seppadai has an odd shape, old or not

 

and I copied one pic from a tsuba book to show what's " worse "...........

 

No, not worse at all. In the pic you posted, the seppadai is very well defined, much more than the first tsuba of this post. Do not confuse seppadai and nakago ana, we are talking about two different things.

[Martin]

Lorenzo,

maybe this is just an optical illusion...

I played a little with the picture and the placement of the Seppa-Dai seems to be almost identical on both sides...

The outline of the Seppa-Dai is a little irregular on the Ura but maybe this was done to keep a certain space to the wave motive that comes pretty close to the Seppa-Dai (like a border)...

[Bungo]

" Bungo wrote:

and I copied one pic from a tsuba book to show what's " worse "...........

 

 

 

No, not worse at all. In the pic you posted, the seppadai is very well defined, much more than the first tsuba of this post. Do not confuse seppadai and nakago ana, we are talking about two different things. "

 

..........................................

 

 

Lorenzo,

I was referring to what they did to the " area " with all the chisel marks which is very distracting when looking at the pics, not referring to the overall shape of the seppa dai.

Why did they do all the " chiseling " ? More like disfacing to me..............

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

:lol: reading this discussion centred on the nakago ana and seppa dai is a bit like overhearing visitors to an art gallery ignore the paintings and concentrate on the frames

 

The tsuba is, in my opinion, quite a special work. It is clearly ko-kinko...but this doesn't tell us all that much. Judging from the motif and general workmanship I think it well reflects the Momoyama period aesthetic and would date to that time. The colour of the metal and the appearance of the gilding confirms this dating for me.

 

The vertical nanako is not in itself all that unusual, certainly in earlier work.

 

I have serious reservations as to it being Mino work. For similar reasons I don't think Ko-Goto fits either. The openness of the design and the very rare ( for this time period ) representation of a painting style scene ( not unlike the pioneer in this form of representation, Kanie ) in Shakudo seems to very much out of place alongside the typical Ko-mino tsuba which are very busy, almost cluttered, with decoration. Could Kanie have taken a day off from iron and played with some shakudo? ...certainly he was more than skilled enough.

 

The sensitive, sensual almost, modelling of the monkeys expresses a wonderful sense of humour. The plum blossoms are very delicately carved also...something reminiscent of Umetada Myoju in the way they are depicted.

 

All in all, a fascinating and exceptional tsuba. A potential tokubetsu paper perhaps?

 

p.s.

My understanding of the allegory is a little different from that previously suggested.

A monkey attempting to grab the moon reflected in the water is a popular theme in Zenga (Zen ink paintings). The moon on the water, which looks real, symbolizes the illusion of existence, from the Buddhist perspective there are no permanent, fixed entities that we can catch and hold in our grasp.

 

and I found this bit of additional info too;

 

A Buddhist fable known as "A Monkey Reaching for the Moon" became a popular subject of suibokuga (Japanese ink painting) since the Kamakura period (1185-1333), when Chinese monochrome paintings of the Song (960-1279) and Yuan (1279-1368) dynasties dealing with this theme were much sought after. The ways in which Japanese artists rendered the subject varied widely with time and school.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

not one of those amazing iron pieces in which one can see the face of the Virgin Mother

 

Depends on the knowledge of the viewer. In fact mine is so little that I can see the Holy Mary there...

[Lorenzo]

And the knowledge can be distracting too, many times. We like something because it has been teached by experience that it has to be beautiful and we must like it.

 

I talked about the frame of the painting, and not about the painting itself, because I (very personally) can't see anything attractive in this tsuba, while, I liked the design of "the amazing iron piece", even without see in it nothing misterious.

 

My off-topic talking about the seppadai was only joke about this aspect.

 

Now I am ready for the insults

[Ford Hallam]

you bring up a very important point, Lorenzo.

 

That is the difference between connoisseurship, and personal taste. Appreciating what you like is the most natural, and easy thing in the world. It takes absolutely no effort :D ....attempting detached and objective connoisseurship and developing discernment in terms of a particular art form is a completely different undertaking and has nothing to do with our own personal likings.

 

The concept of beauty itself is so open to interpretation that using the word in terms of art appreciation is almost as pointless as the word "nice" :lol:

[Lorenzo]

That is the difference between connoisseurship, and personal taste.

 

I see your point, and of course I agree.

Yet, I think even in connoisseurship, maybe we shall not completely forgot that "Appreciating what you like is the most natural, and easy thing in the world."

 

A connoisseur, in front of two tsuba (in this case) made by Natsuo for example, has to choose between those in some way.

There are several different aspect to be judged, like the overall quality in terms of craftsmanship and conservation, but also the feeling that the piece give to us; isn't to give this "feeling" a sort of goal for the artist?

This is the point in my view.

 

I had the opportunity to work metal with a great teacher and a wonderful person. This opportunity teached me a little bit how to recognize craftsmanship; so I think I can now see the technical qualities of this tsuba; yet, I can't recieve any "positive" feeling from that, neither knowing what the theme is about or who did the piece and in wich year.

 

This is much probably a fault of mine, just wanted to express this feeling, because maybe other people feels this sensation and try a way to express it through words (and also in a foreign language :? )

 

Hope you don't mind about this digression,

 

Regards,

Lorenzo

[Ford Hallam]

This is much probably a fault of mine...

 

duh!...obviously :D

 

In the words of Bruce Lee; " do not concentrate on the finger pointing to the moon or you will miss all the heavenly glory"

[Guido]

Lorenzo,

 

you obviously don't like this Tsuba, and that's quite alright with me. The world would be a pretty boring place indeed if everybody had the same taste. I own this Tsuba, but that doesn't make me overly protective of it in any way - your opinion is as valid as mine (or that of anybody else).

 

If you simply don't like the motif and execution, more power to you - whatever floats your boat! However, I don't quite get your reasoning in regard to it being inferior when it comes to objectively judging its intristic qualities. In one sentence you admit that you don't understand the historical and cultural background, in the next you claim connoiseurship due to your apprenticeship with a (yet to be named) master. On one hand you claim to recognize the craftsmanship, on the other you state that it doesn't give you "positive feelings". Sorry, but it simply doesn't make sense.

[Guido]

BTW - not that it seems to be the focus of this thread anymore - it's a Ko-Kinkô Tsuba from the Momoyama period. What you can't see in the pictures is the triple 6 birthmark under the hair of the monkey's head. I'm pretty sure an iron version wouldn't have suffered from this obvious drawback.

[Lorenzo]

hey hey hey... calm down.

 

Sorry you got angry for this, it was not my idea to make you feel so.

 

The whole point is, you started the thread talking about kantei, but you also talked in a negative way about people that see the virgin mother on the tsuba of the previous topic; so... I thought you was stating that a piece must be judged only studing on books and catalogues. This approach is very limited in my opinion, but is just an opinion, no need to have a fight for that.

 

About who teached me a little of what i know I called him teacher, not master, and I didn't mean to use his name to make my point stronger. I would prefer to keep him off from this completely nosense discussion, that turned out very rude, but I sended you a PM and hope it is enough.

 

Sayonara

[Ford Hallam]

I don't think anyone's getting upset, Lorenzo. All just a bit of teasing we're all big boys after all

 

as for an iron version, Guido....well then that would obviously be sans the nanako and would therefore be called Kanie :D

 

...and those triple 6 marks are only usually visible by moonlight, well at least mine are

[Guido]

Lorenzo, I tried really hard to make it clear that I'm not upset at all. I find it regretful that you perceive my posts as being rude, and the discussion of this Tsuba being nonsense.

 

I admit that my sense of humor is sometimes hard to swallow, but I obviously put my finger on the right spot. Well, you mentioned my remarks about iron Tsuba - let's leave it open to which thread you think I might have directed them at. I'm sorry, but the Kodôgu sections seems to often be a carousel of non-descript pieces of metal that have little to no artistic quality whatsoever. I wonder how people like Mr. Hallam (sorry for dragging you into this, Ford) still muster the energy to reply to posts here when their expert opinion obviously is ignored in favor of what people *want* to hear.

 

Looking at posts on various internet boards for years now, I wonder why anybody would waste his money on literally hundreds of pieces of more or less decorated metal in the rough shape of a Tsuba, when the same amount of money would buy a couple of Jûyô pieces, making one the king of the hill. Quantity over quality is the only logical answer and a frequent trap that novices fall into. And sadly enough, some "old timers" as well.

 

If we are going to progress in this field and improve this forum, we need to strive to examine and study the best we can find (and I'm not talking about my own Tsuba now), and listen closely to those that know more than us. Ignoring good advice in favor of what we want to hear is not going to advance us as collectors, and isn't going to encourage the experts to share their knowledge.

 

Don't get me wrong: I certainly don't want to discourage newbies to post about their acquisitions, there's always something to be learned about even the most utilitarian Tsuba snatched right off of an auction site.

 

Let me paraphrase a few sentences of what I wrote in an article for the JSS/US Newsletter in regard to collecting:

 

The ultimate preparation available to the collector who would like to find Kodôgu worth being collected is at once the most elementary and the most sophisticated preparation of all. It is to learn the subject. No one knows instinctively what a good Tsuba looks like, nor does anyone know intuitively the elements that constitutes it. The collector must absorb the basics in a gradual accretion of understanding. Likewise, good taste in Kodôgu is not an instantaneous revelation. It's usually a gradual development. Most collectors readily concede the improvement of their tastes over previous years. Good taste requires careful nurturing and tending for a mature blossoming. A natural good eye means a head start, an enviable beginning, but it is not enough. Just as a good voice without musical training will not enable one to sing like Pavarotti, so also a good eye will not assure a fine collection without some application and study.

 

In order to appreciate the different types of beauty one should be equipped with as much knowledge as possible and a seeing eye regarding a good piece. Therefore it is useful to memorize the characteristics of the different time periods, schools and masters, so that when looking at Kodôgu one knows where, when and by whom it might have been made. This is the only basis on which to achieve judgement about the differences in quality.

 

The collector who boasts "I don't know anything about Tsuba; I just buy what I like" makes a statement that is not very profound. Of course he buys what he likes. If he doesn't buy what he likes, what does he buy? If he doesn't buy what he likes, he had better not collect. The collector who doesn't know anything about Kodôgu will benefit by learning. If he should be blessed with innate good taste, he may develop expertness by listening and looking, like gifted students who earn degrees without cracking a book. For most of us, however, reading, discussing, examining, and studying are an essential though happy regimen for graduation to connoisseurship. The emotional response to a superb Tsuba may be as intense for the collector who never learned any "technical" information as for the expert, just as the emotional response to music may be as great for the listener who can't hum a tune as for the trained musician. But the intellectual pleasure, if not the emotional response, of the musician is profoundly enhanced by his understanding of theme, harmony, and counterpoint. So also is the intellectual pleasure greater for the collector who understands historical background, material, treatment of subject and technical details.

 

Again (and again and again): I'm not on crusade to make NMB a forum for a few elitists, alienating those that just started out or are on a tight budget, but I sure as hell won't idly stand by when people *promote* their unwillingness to learn anything, or show the constant and stupid desire to stumble on a cheap treasure on eBay. That's the reason why I sarcastically talked about Tsuba that show (in the owner's imagination) the Virgin Mary checking the rawhide strips on her sandals, or Elvis leaning over a stack of pancakes, licking maple syrup from his fingers. Nothing more, and nothing less. And, Lorenzo, this entire post is of course not directed towards you - don't go there again, please!

 

End of sermon.

[Bungo]

" The collector who boasts "I don't know anything about Tsuba; I just buy what I like" makes a statement that is not very profound ".............

 

actually that is honesty and a simple and pertinent answer to complex behavior.

Better than dismissing anything he /she doesn't like as shriimono ( spelling ? ) and/or pretend to be " expert ".

Taste is like an anatomical feature, everyone has one but slightly different.......some have big nose, some have little ones. Some appreciate anything big, while others prefer them small. That's why my favorite seldom wins the Miss Universe contest, seems like most judges like them well endowed.

 

p.s. hope most ( not all, wouldn't want that !! ) like my lame joke, cheers

 

milt

[Brian]

Guys,

I hope those reading this don't see it as pointing to anyone in particular, or any particular post. It is all general discussion about collecting tsuba, and stems from many discussions off the forum that have happened over a long time. I am sure we all do it, and it just serves as a reminder that we all have different tastes, but the approach to collecting should be similar.

I have said before that many of us who don't know the others personally might not catch the subtle humor in statements. I am confident that nothing posted has been intended as rude. Just an attempt to get us on track and get us up to a better level of tosogu discussion, which is where we all want to be.

This is, and has been, an interesting discussion, and debate shouldn't make anyone feel put into a corner. It is of course very difficult to make any point without some feeling like it was directed only at them. All I can say to that is get over it :D

There are indeed many tsuba posted here and on other forums that have little to no artistic merits. Some are just generic items, others mass produced or just lacking any real art. Just because it is old, does not make it a collectors item. The statements about seeing things in them is just a hint at that. The guys here who specialise in iron tsuba will be able to confirm and write a lot about the fact that not every iron piece is a masterpiece. There are subtleties that you need to learn to identify and look out for. A plain old burned and pitted tosho tsuba is not in the same league as a Kaneie or Nobuie. Recognising what makes them special is what we are focusing on. The same applies to kinko works, where there are a lot of mass produced ones and some really masterful ones.

We are all allowed opinions, and I don't see anyone trying to prevent that. I just see gentle steering away from too much discussion about the mediocre items, and more debate and discussion about the good pieces.

If you post them, they will come... (right Martin, Doc L, Rich, Henry, Steve, Richard etc? )

 

Let's all chill a bit and not take things too personally, and have some educational fun at the same time.

 

Brian

[Bungo]

" I just see gentle steering away from too much discussion about the mediocre items, and more debate and discussion about the good pieces.

If you post them, they will come... (right Martin, Doc L, Rich, Henry, Steve, Richard etc? ) "

 

..................

 

 

ummmmm, I don't see our friend Felix mentioned

Also there's no way we can steer away from " mediocre " items as that's what people most likely come across.

I don't subscribe to the idea of too much low end stuffs only " hurt " the eyes. Afterall , if you don't see " ugliness ", then how can you appreciate " beauty " ( outer and inner ) ? And don't forget the sense of beauty is also heavily influenced by culture etc. ( like some African people like BIG lips or some Asian minority groups like LONG necks )..........

Besides, by exposing to " mediocrity ", we " learned " " What not to wear " ( oops, I mean collect ).

 

Really good stuffs will be a rarity, that's why they are soooooo special, yes ?

 

milt

[Brian]

As for leaving out some names...yes indeed.

I am battling bronchitis that is verging on pneumonia the past 4 days. So I have an excuse. I will forget a lot of things the next few days and say things that don't make sense. Please excuse me until I learn how to breathe again

 

Guido was very specific in saying that he doesn't expect to erradicate all talk of mediocre tsuba. We all know they are out there, and will be posted about. The intention is not to change anything more than just encouraging more posting and conversation about good items to offset the mediocre items that will of course come up frequently, and realise that not everything is a masterpiece. As I was once told...sometime a lump of iron that is tsuba shaped is just that....a lump of tsuba-shaped iron :D

Oh...and good quality isn't rare at all. You just have to want to see it. You don't have to buy it to learn from it

As for the comments about beauty in art being subjective, do you really want to go there? :D

That could lead to another 10 pages of discussion that always lead to bickering :lol:

 

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

And just you all remember, I'll be watching:

[Brian]

Good to know you're out there Pete. Use that ruler anytime you have a point to throw in

Beat some sense into us!

 

Brian

[Bungo]

Brian,

you MUST adopt that as your avatar !!

 

 

milt