what is a hagire?

[Dyami]

Hello, I've always been fascinated with Japanese style and swords; with the intention of becoming a collector in the future. (I'm currently 26 and not in the financial position to make expensive sword purchases) I recently came across the word hagire which, after the good fortune of finding this forum and reading some posts, found it meant a flaw, or fatal flaw. Can someone explain this a little more? What makes it a fatal flaw, and what kind of flaw is it? Thanks a lot, looking forward to become an active member of this board!

 

regards, -Dyami

[nihonto1001]

It is a crack that forms perpendicular to the blade's edge. Usually it will be seen on both sides of the edge. If not, it could be a scratch in the ha. It is considered fatal because it could lead to a broken blade in battle.

 

JOn

[Mike]

Here is some visual, good swords with hagire. Mike

[nagamaki - Franco]

..., good swords with hagire. Mike

 

Isn't this a contradiction of terms?

[Brian]

Not at all. There are juyo swords with hagire. A fatal flaw doesn't make a sword not a good one, just a damaged one.

Let's say there is a Sadamune or a Shinkai with a hagire through battle use. Still a good (great) sword, just one with a hagire. I don't think the 2 are always mutually exclusive.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Not at all. There are juyo swords with hagire. A fatal flaw doesn't make a sword not a good one, just a damaged one.

Let's say there is a Sadamune or a Shinkai with a hagire through battle use. Still a good (great) sword, just one with a hagire. I don't think the 2 are always mutually exclusive.

 

Brian

 

Hmm, then, let's say for discussion sake here, and playing advocate, a samurai way back when had a Shinkai that broke during battle due to an unseen hagire that had formed during the manufacturing process, if this samurai would then agree at the moment in which his sword failed catastrophically, that his Shinkai was still a good sword, just one with a hagire. What do you think?

 

Sorry, just trying to keep things in perspective.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Not at all. There are juyo swords with hagire. A fatal flaw doesn't make a sword not a good one, just a damaged one.

Let's say there is a Sadamune or a Shinkai with a hagire through battle use. Still a good (great) sword, just one with a hagire. I don't think the 2 are always mutually exclusive.

 

Brian

 

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but i think a blade with a hagire cannot obtain papers except perhaps some very big name of whom work is extremely scarce.

An art saber is still a weapon and this purpose doesn't be forgotten, *to my eyes* a blade with a hagire is like a plane with broken wings, unusable.

[paulb]

Unless things have changed in recent months/weeks the NBTHK will not paper swords with Hagire regardless of maker. Recently Christies offered a Kiyomaru with an hagire to paraphrase their comment " Under current conditions the NBTHK will not issue a paper for swords with hagire, Mr. Tanobe confirmed that were it not for this fault in this lot it would have no problem in obtaining papers" So authentic, a big name but no papers.

It does beg the question that if a Munechika, Masamune, Go etc appeared whether this would still hold true. Certainly they are more tolerent of faults on older blades (lack of boshi etc) I think hagire are possible a step too far.

regards

Paulb

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

a samurai way back when had a Shinkai that broke during battle due to an unseen hagire that had formed during the manufacturing process, if this samurai would then agree at the moment in which his sword failed catastrophically, that his Shinkai was still a good sword, just one with a hagire. What do you think?

 

If the Hagire is "unseen" the Samurai would have never know the reason of the breaking.

As paratroopers known well, a Samurai checked at least twice for the equipment before battle.

Swords broken often and often developed Hagire in battle especially when parring with mune occurred (the way smiths

brokes unwanted sword is hitting them on the anvil on the Mune' side). Hence the checking before and after the battle.

I'm not sure swords with hagire would have reached the battlefield easily, at least on part of samurai wealthy

enough to have spare weapons.

 

Hence, a sword with an hagire might have been a good sword which happened to be unlucky.

 

Guess I'm going off topic and on a minefield here...