Same Same?

[Gordon Sanders]

Hi guys

 

I have two papered tsubas and feel that they are the same maker and time period, since they obviously look identical

 

. But the oragami looks different

 

Can thise of you that are much better at reading kanji than me tell me what the differences are?

[Curran]

Don't recall having seen Owari Kinko on NBTHK papers before.

That is a new rather vague one. When are those papers from? Fairly recent?

 

Look up Owari and Mino on a map. Kinda two different ways of saying very similar things.

Mino Goto is more of an older fashioned way of saying it, though I didn't look at the date on those papers.

[Gordon Sanders]

The mino papers are recent. In the last couple of months

 

The owari papers. I am unsure as I forgot to ask

 

It is two different tsubas. But they look identical

[Kevin Adams]

Perhaps posting photos of the tsubas themselves will help to determine if they are indeed the same. Sometimes it's the small details that make all the difference.

[Gordon Sanders]

The groups of six are the owari notation.

The singles are mino goto notation

 

Thanks for the help

[Gordon Sanders]

The only difference I see is wear. And that the dragons are looking different directions

[Curran]

Different waves.

2 finger waves are considered more Goto derivative. It is one of the tricks to distinguishing nidai wave Kanshiro tsuba.... (oops, guess that kantei secret is out in the open know)

 

Your 'Owari Kinko' one has a few 3 finger waves.

 

But basically you're debating North Jersey vs South Jersey:   sure there are differences, but they're still New Jersey.

Capiscii?

[Gordon Sanders]

Wow. Great eye. Thanks

 

Since they are both jersey. Is one more valuable/collectible?/desirable

[Curran]

The one in better condition.

 

_________________________________

 

Your NBTHK papers are from 2014, which is consistent with what I expected.

Starting about January 2014, either due to staff changes or other reasons, the NBTHK fittings team started doing things a bit differently that prior decades.

Owari kinko is a perfectly valid description, but not one I remember seeing on papers prior to 2014.

[Gordon Sanders]

Thanks Curran. Haven't seen this type very often, at least since I have been researching. With the design continuing around th edge/Mimi

[Curran]

Waves along the mimi can be seen in ko-kinko:  http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00224.html

I have a very similar one coming back from the NBTHK soon.

 

Schools from Higo to Bushu would do the waves along the mimi.

A Kanshiro example attached.

[Ford Hallam]

Different waves.

2 finger waves are considered more Goto derivative. It is one of the tricks to distinguishing nidai wave Kanshiro tsuba.... (oops, guess that kantei secret is out in the open know)

 

Your 'Owari Kinko' one has a few 3 finger waves.

 

But basically you're debating North Jersey vs South Jersey:   sure there are differences, but they're still New Jersey.

Capiscii?

 

Hi Curran

 

Could you clarify the kantei point please. I'm a little unsure what is meant.

 

Are waves with two 'fingers' then regarded as being Goto?

 

And are two 'fingered' waves indicative of nidai Kanshiro also?

 

I have to confess I am ignorant when it comes to kantei points

[Pete Klein]

Yeah - I'd like to know more on this also...