Mumei/o-Suriage Sword With Deep Tori(?)-Sori

[YZed426]

Hello again guys, I've spent some time compiling what information I can for this blade. It's been quite an interesting journey for me. I now know a great deal more than what I did 3 days ago, and still know nothing. But I've had my eyes opened.

 

I'd like to recognise the obvious awesomeness of Dr Richard Stein, whos website has provided me with a vast majority of the information I have, and also to you guys here. This is repeatedly the top website I come across when searching Nihonto related terms. My following attempted use of Japanese terms is by no means intending to appear knowledgable in the study of Nihonto, but rather to honour the tradition. Sorry for any and all mistakes.

 

Nagasa:662mm.

Sori: ~27mm

Mihaba:31mm

The following post will have pictures with Mihaba a kasane width.

There appears to be hada but it is hard to make out through the scratches and what appears to be oil stains(my uncle was an old school farmer, no such thing as too much engine oil. I wiped off a layer about 1mm thick and it hadn't been out for years...anybody want a cheap plain leather saya:) but I'll leave judgement on that to a more discerning eye. I can't see any hamon, again it could(hopefully) be hidden.

 

Mune is Ihori. 

 

Kasane starts at 7mm at the mune-machi, tapering to 4mm about 1/3 of the way along the blade. ~70mm from the yokote, it tapers to 3.5, then back out to 4mm ~15mm from the point then tapers out (photo following)

 

Kissake: ~35 I can't make out an obvious yokote. Would this be considered a long or medium kissake?

 

 

Nakago:213mm Shape:Hakago(?) no visible yusurime. The nakago has no visible marking on it and is quite rusted and pitted.

 

The tsuba is round, iron(?) with brass(?) inlay of chrysanthenums. The workmanship appears poor to my eyes. It is very rough, even under the inlay. Almost like it's been hammered then inlaid. The punch marks where it was tightened to the blade are very basic and utalitarian.

 

The koshirae is all plain leather. the leather is not just a protective cover over a fancier koshirae, as somebody has opened it at the bottom of the saya and there is no saya underneath. There is no fuchi and no koiguchi fitting. There is a tassle, plain brown, so I'm guessing this is a military sword of some sort. Possibly the nice furniture is still at home...

 

The blade is bent(looking down the mune) with a deflection of ~4-5mm returning to ~2-3 at the kissake. There is what appears to be a ware(or possibly a scratch) on the mune 50mm long about 1/3 of the way along the blade.

 

In my uneducated opinion this is an older(pre showa) nihonto....or a fake...I hope it's not a fake. I put a lot of time into this report:)

[YZed426]

more pictures as promise

[YZed426]

Saya, tuska and tsuba

[YZed426]

It appears that I've mislead you. On further inspection, the tassle appears to be multicoloured. Maybe green/orange? Also, it is possible that the leather on the saya is a cover. Where it's been opened, you can see 2 layers of leather and also the outer leather looks like it was meant to go over the sayajiri rather than leave it exposed. I know these don't affect the sword in any way, but anything can help.

 

(edited for grammar and puctuation)

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Matt,

The saya is a cover for the missing wood saya.  The tsuba is older than WWII, probably Heianjo Zogan work.  The blade is real Japanese and also older than WWII, maybe a lot older.

While a strong curvature somewhat like this can be found on some very early blades, it often is found on blades made later that have been in a fire and retempered (saiba or yakinaoshi).  If you search the site for retemper you'll find earlier discussions with what to look for to determine if your blade is retempered.

But even then, given your newbie status, you won't know for sure.  Find a reputable, more experienced collector and ask his opinion.

Grey

[YZed426]

Thanks heaps Grey, you've given more avenues that I haven't yet investigated. Just a quick search for Heianjo Zogan comes up with so many simliar looking tsuba. I also found one on your website from the Tenpo school(?) which mentions "heavy hammerwork and stampings"  http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/tsuba-%26-kodogu/m151-iron-and-brass-tsuba#is this also a possibile match? wow, this is like the rabbithole, I'm just getting sucked deeper and deeper. Now to search retemper...

[YZed426]

After standing in the sun for 20mins examaning the blade, I can't see any sign of mizukage or anything else mentioned as an indicator of saiha...however I can only get breif hints of hamon as well, so that isnt saying much. Guess I'll have to get it in the hands of somebody better at this than me.

 

Something I did see, is when holding the blade vertical, there are faint, ~horizontal scratches of varying lengths and angles along the shonogi-ji. They are only surface scratches, but not regular enough to be cleaning/polishing attempts, so I'm wondering if maybe they are marks from another sword or just misshandling scars?

 

Further reading(about 3 lines:) into Tenpo tsuba showed that they weren't known for making round tsuba, so I'm guessing I can rule them out again.

 

Done, JAS

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Matt,

You can't edit your posts except for some number of minutes after the initial post: board rules.  The vertical scratches may have come from the saya; maybe there's grit inside.

I wasn't saying I'm sure the sword is retempered, just that it's a possibility.  Other signs of retemper: weak, indistinct, and/or odd temper line; mune-yaki (tempered spots on the mune) on a sword that isn't supposed to have them (not typical school work); dry, burnt feeling nakago; temper starting above the ha-machi on a suriage blade; coarse, open grain; and the tip test.

The tip test: remove all koshirae and hold the blade with both hands on the nakago, edge down, and point away from you (good idea to do this over a pillow or couch cushion).  Loose your grip a bit and let the blade swing downward; stop it before it hits anything.  If the blade has its original temper it should fall true; if retempered it will want to turn its edge up towards the ceiling.

None of these are hard and fast but if the sword exhibits more than a couple, good reason to suspect retemper.

Grey

[Brian]

The tip test: remove all koshirae and hold the blade with both hands on the nakago, edge down, and point away from you (good idea to do this over a pillow or couch cushion).  Loose your grip a bit and let the blade swing downward; stop it before it hits anything.  If the blade has its original temper it should fall true; if retempered it will want to turn its edge up towards the ceiling.

 

Say what??

 

Brian

[YZed426]

Yeah, noticed that, Grey:/ Maybe Brian can help while he's here? I didn't believe you were saying it was definate. I want to know all possibilties, so keep the theories coming. I did look for all those things, but the condition and my lack of knowledge means that I doubt I''d see any if they WERE there. I doubt the blade would pass any sort balance test with the bend it currently has(hope that's repairable if it turns out to be worth the attention)

 

Wondering if anybody would be able to confirm my assessment of the sori? Based on my measurements it seemed like the deepest part of the bend was close to the centre, maybe a little bit towards the nakago. At what point does it become koshi? A few further measurements shows slightly more curve from machi-centre than kissake-centre. Of course this all becomes moot if the blade is o-suriage.

 

Just so you all know, I'm not looking for somebody to say "this blade was made by x" or "this blade was made in Y period". I WANT to figure this out myself, I'm just looking for ideas and theories, like what Grey is providing. Direction for my random, rambling searching:)

[Brian]

Matt,

Trust me, Grey is far more qualified than myself to give a kantei opinion. My surprise was at the gimei "test" as it is the first time I have come across that theory, and suspect it may be a wives-tale. But interested in hearing more.

As for your sword, like so many we come across, there is little that can be said about it in the current state. You might just have to live with the fact that it is real and old, but has some severe condition issues. Probably has a few hundred years on it at least. But probably not economically restorable unless you have $2500 or more lying around.

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Brian,

Test for sai-ba, not gimei.  An old wive's tale told to me by one of the earliest collectors in the west, someone who is still very much a major player, who himself heard it from either Dr. Sato or Dr. Homma (those are quite the wives).  The idea is that the change in sugata during retempering messes with the sword's balance.  Not a hard & fast rule (there are few to none) but a good thing to try if you suspect sai-ba.

Grey

[YZed426]

Brian, the help I was refering to you about was the editing of my post, but "Jas" has taken care of that...Thanks Jas!!...not that I don't want your help with the sword appraisal!

 

I MIGHT have 2500 laying around, but I might look into it more before dropping the $$ down another black hole (motorbikes, 4x4s, boats, guns, tractors...now swords!?!? I suppose that's why we go to work everyday:) Looks like I'm studying up on uchiko. See if I cant find anything interesting under all that mess...

 

Thanks for the info Grey.

[Brian]

Grey, I was thinking sai-ha and writing gimei. Lot on my mind this week

Thanks JAS (John A Stuart)

 

Brian