Thoughts Requested: Menuki

[SwordGuyJoe]

I am trying to build out a koshirae for a sword. I'd appreciate thoughts on these menuki.

[cabowen]

The reverse of menuki are often nearly as important as the obverse....any chance of a shot?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Sure. Here you go

 

[hxv]

Joe,

 

They don't look like menuki per se.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[SwordGuyJoe]

Then please impart some wisdom Hoanh.

[hxv]

Joe,

 

As the heading says, "Thoughts Requested: Menuki," I stated my thought. If it's wisdom you are after, I have none to offer.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[John A Stuart]

They look to me more like those clasps found on tobacco pouches. Depending on the quality of koshirae your assembling, I would step up a few grades. John

[Barrie B]

Joe,

 

Depending on the style of tsukamaki that you are after and the quality of the other fittings, I would think these would be fine under ito (with small lozenges), but without knowing what the other fittings look like and your intensions for the koshirae, we cannot really give any sound advice. Do you plan to use the koshirae? Are you selling it? Are you trying to reproduce an historically correct koshirae?

 

If you plan to display or sell, then I would not use them.. Use real menuki.

 

Barrie.

[Brian]

Yes, tobacco pouch ornaments, or those types affixed to boxes to decorate them...they have a name, but it escapes me right now.

Menuki will have pegs or posts, or signs they were removed. I think these are quite nice, but not menuki.

 

Brian

[SwordGuyJoe]

That's what I get for buying before consulting the board! We've had folks post recently involving buying "mistakes", so the lesson should have been top of mind. Oh well - at least they're a cost effective reminder that I don't know Tosogu.

[Barrie B]

Joe,

 

If these were sold to you as menuki, then you might be able to get your money back…

 

Barrie.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Barrie,

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'll take my lumps on this one. This is something that I could've known, avoided, had I done my research/headed my own advice. So this one is on me and therefore, I should eat the cost - not life changing money. I know it may be a novel/questionable way to think, but it's kind of how I am. I made a deal and that's it.

[Soshin]

Hi Joe,

 

I think they look good just as a general Japanese antique item. Would be nice along with a small okimono, netsuke or antique tobacco pouch collection. I have seen some Japanese antique tobacco pouches that were just awesome in detail and craftsmanship. Not menuki but you did well in the antique tobacco pouch ornament department.

[Guido]

Maekanagu (前金具 tobacco pouch clasps) don't come in pairs; they also have pins (usually two) on the back to fasten them to the pouch, i.e. a back plate on the inner side of the pouch flap. Furthermore, the same standards in terms of workmanship and design apply to them as they do for menuki. This shouldn't be surprising, since many machibori artists turned to making kagamibuta-netsuke, maekanagu etc. after the prohibition of carrying swords.

 

FWIW, I think the items being discussed here are indeed menuki; not very old, cast, probably made for a decorative sword.

[Soshin]

Hi Guido,

 

Never examined tobacco pouch clasp backsides in detail just the tobacco pouch themselves. Thanks for providing more information.

[Barrie B]

FWIW, I think the items being discussed here are indeed menuki

 

My personal opinion only - but, I don't think they are menuki. The reason (I think this) is that menuki (animals etc) are made 'left and right handed' so that they are both facing the same way when mounted; the most common exception to this rule would be Mon's where both menuki are the same. I suspect that they were probably cast from the same original to 'make a pair' as it were.

 

As I stated before, if the sword (Koshirae) was for personal use (Iaido or Tameshigiri) then you would get away with them mounted under ito… After all; you already own them… They look O.k and why spend more money if they will be in the palm..

 

I would enjoy seeing a pic (or two) of the finished koshirae one day - which ever way you go..

 

Barrie.

[Guido]

Barrie, you're right, looks like they are from the same mold - the orientation confused me. But I still think they were made as "menuki" for a decorative sword.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, when one sees menuki of the same orientation, id twins, and there usually will be several sets on the tables at shows, three things that immediately come to mind are mass production, look to see if they are cast, poorer quality.

[Brian]

Not that I know much about the manufacture of these (Ford?) but when you look at the backs, you can see how much of the detail is carved and not just punched from the back (Repousse?) Seems to me to be a decent level of hand crafting, although I suppose they could always be cast with the details exhibited. Would love to hear Ford's opinion on these. Definitely not high class work, that is evident. But mass produced or just competent average work, that is what I am wondering.

 

Brian

[leo]

A pouch clasp was probably the model for these casts. These clasps were punched as Brian said. in this case probably filled in the back to get a proper mould. The backside gives it away.

Still I see no reason not to use them as menuki if the koshirae is not too expensive.

 

Best, Martin

[Guido]

A pouch clasp was probably the model for these casts.

What leads you to this conclusion?