Gunto Sword Translation Please

[Lance]

I think it's just an acceptance stamp, by itself I don't think it points to a machine made blade or Gendaito.

Below is a star stamped gendai with Nagaoya stamp.

http://www.legacyswords.com/fs_ant_daito3.htm

 

In your earlier posts you mentioned there not being any hamon, and fully hardened; if that's the case it wouldn't be a Gendai, and should be considered machine made or Showato

 

Regards,

Lance

[hddennis]

Thanks Lance, that's what I thought, just wanted someone else to come up with the same conclusion. Two heads are better than one.

 

Howard Dennis

[hddennis]

Lance, While I've got your ear, help me with your Seki knowledge. After initially missing the Nagoya stamp I decided to recheck another recent purchase. Nice condition unsigned gunto with what seems to have been a leather covered wood saya. Blade has a decent polish and nice hamon but no visible hada. Appears to be a pinhole in one side and a dip in blade that looks like original polisher was chasing a flaw and lowered blade surface for a few inches. Only tang marking is a partial stamp that seems to match "Hyaku Ren Kokuin" Hundred Times Forged. I have been calling this a gendiato, but now I find a very weak partial Seki stamp. It is so weak I could barely captured it with the sooted tang and tape.

 

What do I call this now? Is it showa-to because of the Seki stamp? Is it gendiato because of the "Hyaku Ren Kokuin" stamp. I'd show the Seki stamp but it just won't photograph.

 

Howard Dennis

[Lance]

Generally Seki stamp means Showato. Any dips or waves in the sword is probably due to the rushed war time polishes that many swords recieved: I don't remember where it was published, but I've seen old photos of assembly-line type setup with women doing the various steps in polishing as well as putting the mounts together. My understanding of a traditional Japanese polish is that if there was a flaw to remove,, they wouldn't just do one spot, they would subtly alter the whole blade to keep a proper geometry, especially on a new (at the time) sword when they'd be sure the outer skin was thick enough.

 

The Kokuin is a puzzler, where did you find the information that it read forged 100 times?

Most of these I've seen were a smith's name, if it was maybe Yoshi XX ?

I'm really not sure about it, and would suggest posting images of the kokuin as a new

topic; you'll have a better chance of getting a complete answer, Heck, I'd like to know as well!

 

Regards,

Lance

[John A Stuart]

It is indeed 百錬 Hyaku Ren, refined 100, likely meaning by folding and forging 100 times (not really 100, but numerous times). I've seen this before. John

[Lance]

Interesting. Howard mentioned a Seki stamp, would this be considered traditionally made or more likely something similar to half forged?

" At issue is whether the steel was put through the oroshigane process as used with tamahagane, after which it is forged and folded into a billet. Western steels are not put through this process as they are already fairly homogeneous. Often they are given a few foldings and that is it. These are called hantan (half forged) blades and while they have some hada, they aren't traditionally made blades. They are still usually oil quenched."

 

" (quoted from the thread below dealing with alternative steels )

 

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15912&p=139958&hilit=half+forged#p139958

 

Regards,

Lance

[John A Stuart]

I had always thought that that kokuin meant exactly that, made traditionally, with oroshigane otherwise the forging and folding process is redundant. The source of the oroshigane is another question. Try and take a pic no matter how poor, it may be a clue. John

[hddennis]

"The Kokuin is a puzzler, where did you find the information that it read forged 100 times?"

 

It came from a list of smiths names on Dr Stein's site: OSHIGATA OF SHOWA ERA

Japanese SWORDSMITHS

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/hyaku.jpg

 

Howard Dennis

[Lance]

Thanks, That is a great resource, I must have looked through those lists dozens of times and never even noticed it.

 

Regards

[Kai-Gunto]

But its not a stainless blade.

[hddennis]

But its not a stainless blade.

 

We are now talking about a second sword not the first one I mentioned here which I mistakenly thought was stainless steel.

 

Howard Dennis

[hddennis]

I had always thought that that kokuin meant exactly that, made traditionally, with oroshigane otherwise the forging and folding process is redundant. The source of the oroshigane is another question. Try and take a pic no matter how poor, it may be a clue. John

John, this is the best I could do:

Howard Dennis

[John A Stuart]

Thanks Howard, but, I meant the Seki stamp. My fault, John

[hddennis]

Thanks Howard, but, I meant the Seki stamp. My fault, John

Sorry John, that is SO faint I mistook it for file marks at first, it can't be seen except by carbon and tape oshigata and then it's only a partial strike that is extremely small and hard to decipher.

 

Howard Dennis

[hddennis]

John, At least I'm improving my skills by your tests!

 

Howard Dennis

[Lance]

If you can get clear pictures of the blade showing the hamon at the same distance as the last pictures you took of the nakago that might help determining what you have.

 

Regards,

Lance

[hddennis]

 

Had these on hand, will try for better tomorrow.

 

Howard Dennis

[John A Stuart]

Very good pic. of the stamp. A Seki sword made to higher than normal specifications? John

[hddennis]

 

John, this was the best I could capture no matter what I tried. Hope it shows you something.

Howard Dennis

[hddennis]

Anyone have an opinion as to what this blade is now that I've posted pictures?

 

Howard Dennis

[cabowen]

Pictures aren't very revealing but I would lean carefully towards traditionally non-traditional.

 

Edit: Didn't realize there was a seki stamp on the blade. That makes it 99% certain it is non-traditional in some way.

[hddennis]

Thanks Chris, sorry I wasn't able to capture more detail. I do believe this blade is traditionally made. Having said that I'm confused by the following: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8010&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=75

 

At the bottom of this page is a chart of stamps. Showa-to stamps. The military ruled that all nontraditionally made blades manufactured for the war effort must bear such stamps.

 

Since My blade has a Seki Stamp is it an exception to this rule? Or is the statement incorrect?

 

Howard Dennis

[Brian]

There are exceptions to every rule. That doesn't change the rule.

Also possible that there was enough non-traditonal material or methods used to classify it as a Showato. Only a shinsa can tell for sure, and we already know they will bounce it with an arsenal stamp.

 

Brian

[hddennis]

So they will bounce a Seki stamp but "some" star stamps are okay? Does any literature exist that states these stamps are strictly for determining the blade as nontraditional? I wonder if they could be just stamps that say this item is acceptable as a weapon to be used by Japanese troops much like RZM marks state that items are acceptable for the German Army and have no say at all as to how the item was produced?

 

Howard Dennis

[Brian]

No. Seki/Showa stamps = Showato.

Star stamps (all of them) indicate traditionally made. Yes..documented.

There are enough threads on this consisting of several pages. Am sure someone will point them out..we are not going down this road yet again.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

What is worrisome to me is the habuchi showing no nie at all. Too diffuse for water yakiire, but, may be the state of polish or pics hiding it. John

[Lance]

The "fuzzy" hamon and the dark spots inside the peaks of the hamon (see image highlighted with arrow below) do seem to point to oil temper, so along with the Seki stamp most likely not traditionally made.

 

Regards,

Lance