Hamon or rather tempered areas elsewhere on blade

[drbvac]

Have a Katana seem like Gassan school or at least similar hada and there are two areas where I have never seen temper and wonder what others experience is :>

 

One I guess I have seen as it extends back from the boshi along the mune for almost 2" and ends in a square edge so it was probably intentional

 

The other is on the shinogi-ji and is half moon shaped so I wonder if in this case the clay fell off the blade while tempering?

 

Will post some pics when I get them '

B

[Lance]

Sounds like muneyaki or extenended kaeri , but I think muneyaki usually runs further back along more of the mune

http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_boshi-1.html

 

Other is probably tobiyaki, could be accidental or sometimes done on purpose any pictures you post might help identify wether it was intentional or not.

 

Regards,

Lance

[drbvac]

I have gotta learn how to take better pictures- even read all the posts and still can't

 

In any case here is what I have

 

 

 

 

[John A Stuart]

The square area is by the polisher. The other looks like muneyaki, but, as you say it is hard to capture sometimes what you see in hand. John

[cabowen]

Really nothing like Gassan work.....The mune yaki looks like a chunk of clay fell off the blade during the hardening process.

[Grey Doffin]

Not that I think it is the case with this sword but mune yaki can also be an indicator of retemper.

Grey

[drbvac]

I read that as well Grey but I think what happened is exactly what Chris said - it is the only area on the shindig-ji on one side that is there. ai am almost positive it was not re-tempered but in terms of the clay falling off - agreed.

 

I am not sure if that happened at that stage in the forging if the smith would bother re-doing from the start - I understand that even though it is a flaw it isn't a fatal flaw as far as I understand.

 

I did think it was as I stated a hada similar to Gassan - asayuga - but no where as controlled and even as a Gassan and the hamon is all over the place

[cabowen]

While only a few areas of the hada are visible, what is shown is masame and some itame. There really isn't anything in the photos close to ayasugi:

 

[bubba-san]

Sometimes the clay is wiped off the Mune as a way of controlling sori . I learned that when I was stationed in Yokosuka, Japan in the 1960s .Here is a blade I made a few years ago. I used antique hardware to add some authenticity. I would like to see some pics of what you are referring to. Regards James

 

I looked at your pics , I believe the previous poster correct. Seems as though some clay fell off during quench

 

Hardening is what you may be referring to , tempering is a different process. Tempering is a softening process , mainly to relieve stress built up during forging and quenching ... James

[drbvac]

Thanks for the comments - the hada in the main part of the blade is sort of odd in any event @

 

 

[cabowen]

Looks like lots of something in the steel that prevented tight, slag free welds. You see this sometimes in the so-called hantan blades of WWII.

[runagmc]

To me, the welds looks fairly tight... it just looks like a large pattern masame hada, made of several thick layers (less layers in number, but larger in thickness than "typical" masame hada) sandwiched together. At least I think that's what I'm seeing. It is kinda odd looking though...

 

I understand what Chris means about the welds though... they look to have a wider than normal weld joint, but no openings... I don't know how this would happen...

 

I remember some of the gimei blades on ebay (one seller was selling lots of them ,they all looked the same but had different mei), having hada like this... We talked about the on NMB a while back...

[drbvac]

You got it - they are thicker folds but they are certainly welded tight and no openings at all - not a WW11 blade either I don't believe

 

 

[runagmc]

I would guess it's modern... although I have seen some swords made in the 1800s with unusual hada... I've also seen some repro's with similar hada, so

[cabowen]

These sure looks like rough, open/slaggy welds to me:

 

 

 

If you ran a surface indicator over the surface I bet it would show crevices along those welds...

[Lance]

Attached is a Showa era sword by Amahide, I think this might illustrate the type of hada some smiths produced during this time period by folding different steels together in a manner similar to your sword.

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss188.htm

 

There were some smiths who did this during Shin Shinto period, when experimenting with forging methods, maybe posting more pics of the whole blade and tang will help to provide you more information.

 

Regards,

Lance

 

(edited for spelling)

[cabowen]

Here is another:

 

[drbvac]

THe welds are certainly not visible when in hand and although they appear like open rough ditches on the photos - there is no roughness apparent on the steel.

 

I do agree that it is probably a mixture of different types of steel with differing hardness

 

The hamon is a mixed bag for sure and I paid less than this computer cost for it so I am not too worried about it - I think it is prior to war time however, shin shinto is probably a good guess.

 

 

 

[Lance]

I'd agree and go with Shin-Shinto as well.

(edited to add) If it were my sword I'd submit it to one of the upcoming US shinsa , especially worth it since you got it for a great price!

 

Regards,

Lance

[cabowen]

Looks like an attempt at matsukawa hada....

[runagmc]

The hada looks entirely different from one pic to the next...

[drbvac]

 

Its like he folded and hammered and turned it a bit and maybe even twisted and flattened.

 

I should try and get a full length shot or run a movie down the length cause it is sort of weird - mumei as well so >??

 

Maybe its an "experiment" you know like when an artist goes from realism to interpretation. I know it almost religious process but - one may get tired of repetition :lol:

[bubba-san]

I may be made with some namban Tetsu . Wootz was somtimes mixed with tamahagane (holland style)

 

There is some dissagreement about weather or not wootz was used ? I believe it was . but, lets not get off subject . James