Late Edo Heianjo copy?

[lotus]

Wanted your opinion on whether you think the attached Tsuba is a late Edo Heinjo copy? I compared it to some "real" early Edo Heianjo Tsubas incorporating the same design and a couple things appeared to me. First, the alleged copy is much thicker than the early ones. Secondly, the iron seems different to me. And then I ran across a 2009 thread with the same subject as this one. In there a couple quotes seemed to apply here :

 

Overall the plate metal looks like it "is trying too hard" to be a older/real heianjo piece. There is too much plate "diviting", making it look overdone and has a sort of glassy look to it. This glassy look is common to many of the mass produced copies and should be considered a giveaway to its age and lack of real plate quality that the better schools posess. Also this piece is too thick for Heianjo.

 

The iron does seem a tad glassy especially compared to the early ones. Also, 100% of the inlay is intact and the condition looks just too good for early Edo. And the next quote talks about when these late copies were made.

 

Dr Torigoye wrote;

In the late-Edo period the early fashion of the Heinajo-zogan style gained great popularity. It was revived in several centres ... Kyoto, Wakamatsu, and Aizu.

The design style of later reproductions was very close to ... the early Edo age.

The student will know this late style by the more naturalistic designs, ... poor color of brass, ... young iron of plate.

In the Meiji era (1868-1911) a second period of reproduction was begun by two dealers from Aizu ... working on the docks in Yokohama.

The majority of these pieces ... were exported to the west. The majority of the brass inlay pieces seen in the west today are these export products.

Fine examples of the early Edo period Heianjo-zogan tsuba are quite rare and 90% of the brass inlay tsuba seen today are little more than 100 years old.

 

So, is this one of those late copies? Or an authentic Early Edo Heianjo?

 

I am attaching a few older ones for comparison purposes.

 

Thanks,

Pat R.

[Alan Morton]

Pat,

Yoshiro

 

Alan

[christianmalterre]

Dear Pat,

 

Yes-an late(very late)copy of course.

 

Following indicators may help you in correct attribution to heianjo-zogan pieces(old ones)

1.thickness of plate(your´s exemplaire is far to massive)

2.Iron and quality of iron,plus colouration(your´s exemplaire is much to homogenous,colouration is typical for Edo to lattest Edo workmanship)

3.Hitsuana(your´s exemplaire does not show the typical to ben observed enlongated Hitsuana)

4.Zogan(your´s exemplaire shows an set on construction/not carved in construction which latter was implied and propperly retempered(like in early examples)

5.The Zogan wire itself is executed/overworked after the inlay(in this case here onlay was done)-in old Heianjo types-the Zogan was already executed to finnish,before set in...)

6.The Zogan walls are to elongated,carving is slappish and show the wrong ankle(see picture i did spot)-such quality loss is certainly not seen in Heianjo.

 

Hope this helps?

 

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

in old Heianjo types-the Zogan was already executed to finnish,before set in...)

 

I don't know why this old idea is still around. There is absolutely no evidence that it's accurate nor does it make much sense from a metalworking point of view.

[christianmalterre]

it does of course make evidence Ford.

if you look close you do see an quite regularely occuring declination of quality,even,possibility of entire/partially loss in Zogan.

This point is remarkable quite ofthen in early Edo pieces,not such common(due obvious fact of wear and use)in latter Edo pieces of course(this but is not thematics.

You but very hardly-if ever-do see REAL loss of Zogan in early Heianjo pieces!

 

(you,jbw do remark quite equal happening in Katchu Zogan...)

An striking indicator of different ways of workmanship....

I just say Keicho...

 

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

But nothing of what you've now written proves that in "old Heianjo types-the Zogan was already executed to finnish". The idea that the piece to be inlaid (mon-gane) is carved and engraved to completion before actual inlay into the steel plate reveals a lack of understanding of the actual process of inlay. That's all I'm talking about.

[christianmalterre]

Ford

It´s quite O.K. for me so you do "sell" some ideas and reflections you do have...

This but has nothing to do with Kantei points.

I think,everybody having the rare chance so to study real Heinjo pieces-immediately will see the differences.

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

Christian,

 

I'm not selling any idea. I'm merely pointing out hat the idea you offered has no evidence to support it. But if it has nothing to do with kantei point why did you bring it up? Frankly I find your attitude arrogant and dismissive.

[christianmalterre]

It´s O.K. Ford

 

Christian

[christianmalterre]

attached some pictures of typical work..

Hope that Mike and John do agree posting them here...

 

an quite family but earlier work to Topic-example dating from Keicho...

and one very nice exemplaire from Heianjo...

hope you can see the differences...

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

You know Christian, I find your attitude unfortunate considering that this is supposed to be an educational forum. I'd have expected a reasonable response with regard to me questioning your perpetuation of an unsubstantiated idea. (and one I've thoroughly discussed elsewhere on this forum) Instead you chose to simply try to brush aside my comment as being irrelevant.

 

That what I meant by your attitude being arrogant and dismissive. And it's not OK in my book. It's just bloody rude.

[sanjuro]

Not to take sides here but as I understand it, Christian is saying that the plate is taken to finish prior to the inlay work being performed. Yet the examples given do not support that hypothesis. I have some experience with inlay work, having been a jeweller, and the examples posted here look more as one would expect in that the inlay work was done prior to the plate being finished, and the whole surface finished as a last step. There is no evidence that it was done otherwise It makes no sense to do it otherwise. Regardless of how inscutible Japanese tsubako may have been in the way they worked the metal, they would surely not have gone against an established method of production. It makes no sense to complete a plate that may be marked in the inlay process and thereby necessitate repairs to the finish, when all they need do is finish the plate after the inlay work had been completed. Am I seeing this in the wrong light or what?? :?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Keith

 

Some of us had a really good discussion on the subject back in 2009. We covered the whole 'cast inlay' theory and various other aspects quite well I feel. One of the better discussion we've had here, the NMB at it's finest. Here's a link

[sanjuro]

Are we considering the possibiity of the inlay being precast? Why? Brass does not take kindly to precasting in such fine shapes, at least not with any regularity of definition. Why precast when wire is easier to work and holds a regular shape? The tsuba themselves bear witness that the inlay is done with wire and small shapes hammered down and pinched in a pre cut channel or area relieved to recieve them. I dont understand the point of contention. :?

[Ford Hallam]

neither did I, Keith But you know what dogma is like

[Pete Klein]

http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/heianjo.htm

 

There is a discussion of what is being referred to here as far as the old school thoughts are concerned. It was actually Onin which were supposed to have 'cast' parts, not Heianjo. I always had a bit of doubt myself on this theory for whatever that is worth.

[christianmalterre]

Exact Pete,

 

plus,we do(at least old school)do have Akiyama-Senseis writings,musing research by Mr.Haynes,Sasano-sans excellent essayes-and for luck Okamoto-sans published Essayes in TBJ´s...not to mention some modern authors-referencing to those writings....

Equally to mention may be an maybe rather otside-view study and publication by Elaine Savage and Cyril Sanley Smith:"Techniques of Tsuba Makers"(which those of "Old school" here certainly do have equally(at least i do know you Pete got provided with).

 

Either way-Dear Ford-your´s comportement is indiscutable.

If you do not agree-please do refer you to the Motherhouse directly.

 

Christian

[Brian]

 

Let's drop it, and get back to learning. It's December....those who choose to bicker will get coal in their sword bags.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Pete, yes, you're correct (of course ) and the discussion I linked to was focused on that also. I presume Christian was confused on that aspect but either way the critique remains.

 

Brian, yes, we ought to return to study. The issue here is what exactly do we suggest is studied as being reliable. My comments were an attempt to clarify, I have no idea what Christian is going on about , but to be frank I'm actually pretty tired of this sort of discussion so I'll wish every one a very happy Christmas and a prosperous new year and take my leave.

 

regards all,

 

Ford