kusunokimasahige Posted November 22, 2012 Author Report Posted November 22, 2012 Christian, it is NOT ! about money, value or whatever ! It is about a Tsuba. Do you really feel that only high value and high quality Tsuba warrant more discussion ? Very disappointing if so... Apart from that : "The real Tosho ? the real Katchu-shi ?" How would/could anyone know ? Guesstimates, nothing more nothing less. Even the NBTHK does that. Educated, and highly credible, of course ! Here to learn more, not less. KM (David, thank you for your contribution. Indeed what you say about the social class of Tsubako etc. is correct, as well are your remarks that study from photos can never be as good as seeing the real thing in person, though I still am not convinced there was no cross-professional movement amongst them ) .
christianmalterre Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Dear H.J. This is not meant personally! I do repeat: I did give an subjective,personal related statement from MINE PART to THIS Tsuba here. I do not care if somebody does like or dislikes an maybe resulting conclusion relating to the "estate" or "personal value"-i do speak from the "workmanship" "condition" maybe "significance" obviously to ben seen here in this exemplaire. I am not an "nostalgic" collector-i am rather an "quality" collector(resulting due the fact that i do this little passionate hobby since quite a longer time right now) It´s certainly not bad to "play games"...someday in future but-you very certainly will understand me here... I do repeat-i do feel very sorry you dislike-it´s anyways far away to ben intended personally to you. The obvious discrepance may most probably result due experience and personal prefernce. Christian
kusunokimasahige Posted November 22, 2012 Author Report Posted November 22, 2012 Thank you Christian for your explanation. Probably some mix up in translation and perception of language, no hard feelings !! The reason I asked you why you think it is Sadahiro style etc, is because I value any opinion of collectors about this (and other) tsuba and I would like to know the way all of you assess these items. What things you really look at. I am totally unbiassed, for me this is a tsuba, used by (hopefully) a member of the Samurai class and not a merchant. I like it because it is no nonsense. Not overly decorative, not baroque in its appearance. What others say it is worth (money) does not interest me, I am actually only interested in the artifact as an artifact since beauty lies solely in the eye of the beholder. That does not mean I cannot or will not appreciate the artistry or techniques tsubako use, or even the beauty of a tsuba, like the Tiger one by Unno Moritoshi I just saw in another topic. Same goes for the work of Ford Hallam, those and many other high-end tsuba are true gems. The difference between "quality" and "nostalgic" collecting in my view is a matter of perception, not of fact. I disliked your comment because (in my eyes) it was quite condescending remark as if the entire discussion was useless because this tsuba is only worth so and so much money wise. I am of the opinion that even low-end items should be discussed, if only to appreciate and understand high-end items better. So, no problems whatsoever between us Best wishes, KM
Brian Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 I am totally unbiassed, for me this is a tsuba, used by (hopefully) a member of the Samurai class and not a merchant. I like it because it is no nonsense. Not overly decorative, not baroque in its appearance. What others say it is worth (money) does not interest me, I am actually only interested in the artifact as an artifact since beauty lies solely in the eye of the beholder.... The difference between "quality" and "nostalgic" collecting in my view is a matter of perception, not of fact..... Hmmm. Is it any wonder that advanced tsuba collectors are reluctant to chime in. We don't study artifacts here. There are archaelogical forums for that. We study art. Quality art. Because not all of us can afford top quality, we discuss average quality sometimes...with an aim towards oneday improving our collections up to quality items. Everything is geared towards identifying, studying, preserving and collecting good examples of good quality (iron or kinko or whatever) We are not here for nostalgia, and the difference between quality and nostaligia is NOT perception. Romanticizing the samurai vs merchants and lumps of iron that were more functional than quality is not going to lead anywhere constructive. Once again we have drifted to the $50 tsuba side, and are trying to justify pages of discussion based on function, and lack of artistic merit replaced with romanticism. What are we teaching newcomers here? Brian
kusunokimasahige Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Posted November 23, 2012 Once again we have drifted to the $50 tsuba side, and are trying to justify pages of discussion based on function, and lack of artistic merit replaced with romanticism. What are we teaching newcomers here? That these : in your and some other connaisseur's opinion are infinitely better than this stuff is : ( 65 US$ startbid on Ebay ) Which immediately makes it unworthy of any discussion in your eyes. I am sorry Brian, with all due respect, but I am still of the opinion that even low-end items should be discussed, if only to appreciate and understand high-end items better. KM
Brian Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 I am sorry Brian, with all due respect, but I am still of the opinion that even low-end items should be discussed, if only to appreciate and understand high-end items better. Wroooong. Let me fix that for you. "Even low-end items can be discussed here. But they have little to do with understanding high-end items better." Clearly your way is not working, because you are still comparing this: ..with this: You think those 2 are comparable and of the same quality? Brian
ROKUJURO Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Gentlemen, this is an interesting discussion, especially for the novice collectors. In my understanding, the evaluation of TSUBA is not merely a question of design or technical finesse, but also of knowledge. Aesthetics is another criterium, and there you need to understand the history and the soul of the Japanese people. It may not be easy for everyone to compare TSUBA like these: with high-end KINKO, HAMANO or NARA, and to accept that the respective makers intended the results - they could not have done 'better' or 'more carefully'. One has to develop a feeling for the ever changing styles and to differentiate e.g a WABI-SABI influence from a coarse and hastily made TSUBA with only the function in mind. Quality has many aspects.
kusunokimasahige Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Posted November 23, 2012 Thank you Jean. I am happy you find it a good discussion for novice collectors. Again, in reply to the statement of Brian : Once again we have drifted to the $50 tsuba side, and are trying to justify pages of discussion based on function, and lack of artistic merit replaced with romanticism. I would like to add the following quote by JG Gilbert, which I read on his Tsuba page : In its simplest form a tsuba can be a plain, undecorated plate. Most however are embellished to some degree with surface texturing, cut-out openwork in positive and negative silhouette or inlay/overlay of various metals. The style of work varies with time, region and the imagination of the maker. Decorated or not, a good tsuba must first satisfy the basic demands of function. So I have a Tsuba considered by some an ugly worthless one, a nice piece of iron by others, and a Tsuba of average quality by yet others. Only two of the people participating in the discussion have started to name the discussion itself a useless one of which only one says I cannot even see the difference in quality between two Tsuba of a different school/style of which one is mine, but both being in about the same price range. What does that teach newcomers here ? KM
sanjuro Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 whatever...... This just stopped being a discussion and is now some sort of esoteric intellectual contest centered around what we think we might be conveying to newbies. Other than that it now has no value. Close it!
kusunokimasahige Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Posted November 23, 2012 I agree with Keith, and thank all who started to sneer about quality, expertise and value wholeheartedly for ruïning this discussion in the first place. I am pulling out of this discussion now. KM
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