Fukushima / Aizu tsuba, all opinions welcome.

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello all,

 

Today my second tsuba, unsigned, Marugata shape, arrived from Fukushima prefecture.

 

I would like to ask your opinion on this tsuba, age, school etc. I looked in my Sasano-tosogu no Kansho but no comparable images there. The chart on Rich Stein's site is also of no avail.

 

Sizes:

 

Diameter : 7 cm

Thickness: 4 mm

Rim not thicker than inside.

School : ( Aizu- ? )

 

I have not cleaned it nor will I, might stabilize the rust with the bone method.

 

First I thought that there was writing on the filled ategane/ume, but it is very difficult to make out so I guess it might have been some other form of decoration.

 

I hope the images are clear enough for an estimate of origin, age, school etc.

 

Any information suggestions welcome.

 

KM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John A Stuart]

Amida-yasuri, which are lines that radiate from the center and are believed to represent the spiritual aura of the Buddha/Boddhisatva. John

[Henry Wilson]

It looks late Edo Katchushi to me.

[sanjuro]

Sengoku Jidai/Momoyama Katchushi. (1500 to 1600) The seppa dai is a fairly squat oval, which is why I say Momoyama. Also I have one very similar which is definitely Momoyama. One must bear in mind however, that I know pathetically little about tsuba.

 

Nice piece of iron.

[Marius]

Keith,

 

size, patina and thickness (as well as the relative crispness of the Amida yasuri) all say: Edo.

[sanjuro]

Marius.

 

I bow to a greater authority As I stated, I know pathetically little about tsuba but this one does bear a striking similarity to mine. Mine of course is a little more worn looking and it does lack that crispness you cited. The amida yasuri are not as pronounced on mine either, and the entire plate is only 2.2 mm thick. Ah well.......Back to the books......

I really should stick to blades...... Tsuba both fascinate and confuse me.

[Marius]

.

I bow to a greater authority

 

Authority?

 

Anyhow, care to show us your tsuba?

[sanjuro]

Marius.

 

When it comes to tsuba everyone and I mean everyone, is a greater authority than I. When I get home I'll dig out the tsuba and attempt to take a few decent pics. The one's I have are rubbish and I wouldnt post them here.

[Soshin]

Hi KM,

 

No the tsuba isn't Aizu. I would say late Edo Period in the style of a Kachushi tsuba of fairly average quality in my opinion. In one photo it looks like you are using a dead bird as a tsuba stand!? :?

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Marius]

The dead bird's leg is made of pewter or spelter, I think :-)

 

Otherwise than that I agree with you, David :-)

[kusunokimasahige]

The dead bird leg is not a dead bird leg but the forearm of a very creepy and moody female I have a statue of:

 

 

I called the tsuba Aizu/Fukushima because that is the location in Japan I obtained it from. What the original owner

did during his lifetime in the Edo period and where he came from I do not know.

 

So it is according to the people with much more experience in Tsuba, a Katchu-Shi (style) Tsuba from the Edo period,

one says late, the other says just Edo. No particular school/maker.

 

The reason I like it is that it is functional and no nonsense.

 

What leads me to believe it might have been a well used sword this tsuba came from is the fact that there is wear at certain specific points on it, especially where ones index finger would touch the iron when holding the blade. (though I might be wrong on that one)

 

KM

[sanjuro]

As promised and I guess for a comparison to KM's tsuba. We'll Have to do with the rubbish pics I'm afraid. Other half has camera, currently in Denmark. I forgot she had it.

[Marius]

Keith,

 

sorry, can you give measurements, please?

[Henry Wilson]

So it is according to the people with much more experience in Tsuba, a Katchu-Shi (style) Tsuba from the Edo period,

one says late, the other says just Edo. No particular school/maker.

The school / maker is katchushi in my opinion. This is based on the characteristics seen on the plate. It was probably made as a Tensho revival peice. The artist would be impossible to name but at a guess a student of a metal worker living near a large city.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you Henry, but I was under the opinion from what I have been reading that katchu-shi only relates to someone working as an armourer, making tsuba on the side, which does not form a school in itself.

 

Unless of course, the meaning of the word "school" is interchangeable with the word "style"

 

Please inform me if I am wrong in that respect.

 

KM

[Henry Wilson]

You are welcome KM and you are correct. However that rule of thumb is only applicable to tsuba made before the Edo period. The style of yours suggest mid to late Edo.

 

Also Katchushi is a certain style of tsuba which has been labeled for kantei. It is only a theory that armour makers made them because they exhibit similarities seem in armour.

[sanjuro]

Mariusz.

 

the tsuba I posted is 77mm in diameter and is 2.8mm in thickness. There is no tapering across the plate. Sorry I forgot to include these measurements originally.

[Soshin]

Hi KM,

 

Herny W. makes a very good point that is worth discussing in my opinion. The term katchushi tsuba in a pre Edo Period context means a armor maker or his assistants who would work making tsuba as a side business and would incorporate a number of techniques also used in armor making. These include forging method of the plate, openwork design, surface treatments, rim design, lacquering, etc. This is in contrast to a katchushi style tsuba from the Edo Period which while having many of the stylistic characteristic of being made by a armor maker is often made by a professional tsuba maker or in the cases a swordsmith. Here is a good example I like of a shinshinto swordsmith (Tosho) making a Kachushi style Nobuie tsuba: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tsuba27.html. The original Shodai and Nidai Nobuie use of lacquer and other methods discussed above clearly indicates there skills were of katchushi origin. I hope you find this additional information helpful.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello David, thank you very much for your reply.

 

Let me reiterate to get it straight.

 

Basically you are saying that these dimples :

 

 

 

Amongst other things point to a late Edo Katchu-shi style tsuba, and as reference you pointed out

the Nobuie tsuba made by a shinshinto smith.

 

Now my question is, since from the images you provided through the link it is more than obvious that specific

dimple is artificial, what makes you think that these dimples in my tsuba are artificial and not wear and tear ?

 

 

Secondly, and that is something I am always a bit baffled by when reading up on these things, why

do many people who are knowledgeable about tosogu as well as Nihonto seem, and I deliberately say "seem"

to think that the work of Swordsmiths and Katchu-Shi was rigidly separated during the Edo period since

before it was not?

 

"The term katchushi tsuba in a pre Edo Period context means a armor maker or his assistants who would work making tsuba as a side business and would incorporate a number of techniques also used in armor making. These include forging method of the plate, openwork design, surface treatments, rim design, lacquering, etc. This is in contrast to a katchushi style tsuba from the Edo Period which while having many of the stylistic characteristic of being made by a armor maker is often made by a professional tsuba maker or in the cases a swordsmith."

 

There must still have been sword smiths who also made armor apart from tosogu even during the Edo period,

and vice versa.

 

Though it is of course clear to me that only when the separation edicts by the Hideyoshi came into effect and

were implemented by the Tokugawa bakufu, people of one profession/status were not allowed to do any other

profession (at least according to the laws) and moving across status lines was banned. A Samurai was a Samurai,

a farmer a farmer, a merchant a merchant et cetera.

 

However, there are several historical examples where this rule was not applied or even outright circumvented.

(I refer to some of the Ako ronin working as Rice merchants and in other jobs as a front, even though they were

of Samurai status, but there are more examples of course where cross status positions were taken).

 

Historical research shows us that the separation of the classes, though rigid in theory, was not as rigidly

followed or adhered to as one might think. Of course the higher ones status, the less likely one could change

it without the bakufu becoming aware of it. And farmers posing as Samurai were also not very likely to succeed,

especially during the Edo period since they did not know all intricate details of the social conventions used by the

upper classes. This however says nothing about certain artisans/craftsmen who could and did indeed cross professional lines.

 

KM

[Henry Wilson]

I deliberately say "seem"

to think that the work of Swordsmiths and Katchu-Shi was rigidly separated during the Edo period since

before it was not?

 

I am confused. It has been a long day, but as I understand it this is my response. I think that it is agreed that at anytime in history swordsmiths made swords and armour smiths made armour only. The reason why people make this conclusion is becasue the time needed to make the items would be too long and the skill too specialized to make both of a high quality.

[sanjuro]

Henry has a point. There is an assumption by some that a swordsmith could at will knockout a tsuba or two or that katchushi would belt out the odd tsuba just because they could.

Both these professions were highly specialised and catered to patrons that ordered swords and armour specifically from the smith concerned. Each of these items could and often did take weeks to complete.

That both katchushi and tosho would make tsuba is known, but surely these would have been made on the direction of a patron who preferred the smith concerned to make it for him. Otherwise and we are in danger of making the assumption that all of these professions tsubako, katchushi and tosho were merely common blacksmiths and not specialised artisans.

[Henry Wilson]

I personally think highly skilled tsuba-ko have been around since before the Muromachi period. Just look at all those goergous early tachi. The fittings must have been made by a skilled artisan. Even Kofun period fittings are extremely well made.

 

As for iron tsuba, I think specialized workers have been making them since at least early Muromachi. Ones that were made by a swordsmith on the side I feel are few and far between bit do / did exist as the pre-Muromachi uchigatana seem to have been equipped with simple hand guards. Look here for more details:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13468

[Marius]

Gentlemen,

 

all pre-Edo unsigned tsuba have been divided by scholars into certain categories (ko-tosho, ko-katchushi, tachi kanagushi, kagamishi and ko-kinko). All of these categories are only constructs and their sole purpose is to give a tsuba an attribution. They are no schools, just constructs, reflecting some common features in each group.

 

Whether katchushi tsuba have been produced by armor makers and tosho tsuba by swordsmiths or not, nobody really knows. Starting from the early Edo period tsubako often signed their works. Thos who did not were tsubako, too, and some of them might have come from armor makers families.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Keith, I still fail to see a Momoyama tsuba in yours. I may be wrong. But as Kunitaro-san has said in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14300

"It is all about patina". He was right. Still, even your tsuba's design does not look Momoyama. But, hey, I am not a shinsa panel, right?

[kusunokimasahige]

Very good discussion indeed.

 

I have to agree with Mariusz, because part of my proof lies with two gentlemen of Samurai status who had nothing whatsoever to do professionally with blacksmithing, Katchu, Tosho and Tosogu, namely a certain mr. Miyamoto Musashi and a mr. Yagyu Toshikane.

 

I do not disagree about the artistry and highly specialised functions of top makers of Armor, swords and tosogu, but it is also a fact that for instance when the Meiji period kicked in, many swordsmiths started to make kitchen knives and scissors.

 

So basically we do not know if a swordsmith during the Edo period did make only swords, nor if a tsubako only made tsuba, or a katchu only armor. Even in Classical antiquity and Medieval Europe swordmakers would also have worked on different things, whether they be weaponry or other items.

 

For instance in late 19th century Europe, the Wilkinson company moved from only swordmaking to razorblades which many of us still use.

( http://www.answers.com/topic/wilkinson-sword )

 

This is probably all part of my historian's scepticism kicking in from time to time when reading about Nihonto, Tsuba, schools, makers and styles et cetera.

 

KM

[christianmalterre]

Dear H.J.

 

funny discussion indeed..Laugh!

Mine personal call here,so to come back to the your´s personal Fukushima is:

An "Sadahiro"-Style and Heianjo-type workmanship.

(Such!-Your´s Fukushima Call is quite striking!-LOL!-and this by an laymen near 500 Years latter-LOL!)

Late Momoyama-Early Edo.

 

Historical nostalgic indeed!

Laugh!

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

Hahaha nice one Christian !!

 

But as I stated in an earlier post already, I called it a Fukushima tsuba because it was sent to me from : Fukushima, Aizu.

 

(Nov 14 11:12 Posting/Collection AIZUAPIO Fukushima prefecture 965-0059)

 

 

The discussion then entered another dimension, from: "What is this (my) tsuba, who made it and when ?"

 

To: "in what way is a school part of a style, or a style part of a school ? Or is a style a school ?"

 

Is a school a group of people making tsuba in the same style ? Or is a style of tsuba made by people in the same social or artistic group, or under the guidance of a teacher or even following someones earlier style of work ? Immediately followed by: "Did only tsubako make tsuba ?" (in a building called a school ?)

 

Just one of many basic scholarly techniques to ask questions, ie brainstorm (at least, historically sound).

 

The questions are out of interest, not out of some wish to be right or even righteous.

It is to learn and discuss many possibilities.

 

I wont go into Karl Popper and his falsification theory here though.

 

Thank you anyway for posting your opinion on the tsuba !

 

What makes you think it is what you say it is ? Ie, please explain why you think it would be :

 

"Sadahiro"-Style and Heianjo-type workmanship.

Late Momoyama-Early Edo.

 

 

KM

[christianmalterre]

Dear H.J.

 

such you got it?-that´s good indeed...

 

I do not see any sense in "lamenting" these "ifs" or "ofs"-like it obviously seem it did follow...

You did ask for an personal opinion(your´s first post)-and i gave it...

 

For me,it´s "Sadahiro"-Style and Heianjo-type workmanship which will most probably(but who finally knows?-Laugh)ben papered(if issued?)to the Shoami.

For me,(and i can actually only judge by your´s posted pictures)it´s Momoyama-Early Edo.

 

For further research(without lamenting-as i personally do not have the slightest interest in doing such) please do read NBTHK-Token Bijutsu issues and "maybe" the essential Tsuba literature...?

An hint may eventually be Nobuo Ogasawara´s-San writings and essayes(as he seemingly did "cause his head" especially such candidates)

You may but equally find an profound analysis in "Rei"...(equally relating this Tosho and Katchushi discussion of course)

Hmmh?

 

Sorry-this generally to ben obseved talking "dead" is not mine style...i do link me out here...keep on playing...LOL!

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

Well, at the moment I am reading a lot :

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/tsuba-artisan-schools.htm

 

http://world.choshuya.co.jp/tousougu/index.htm

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/haynestutorial.htm

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm

 

And the article : Aizu and Aizu Shoami Tsuba, By Danny Massey and Tsuguyasu Wada.

 

But yes, I like to read more and more as I go along, same goes for Nihon-To

 

KM

[Soshin]

Gentlemen,

 

all pre-Edo unsigned tsuba have been divided by scholars into certain categories (ko-tosho, ko-katchushi, tachi kanagushi, kagamishi and ko-kinko). All of these categories are only constructs and their sole purpose is to give a tsuba an attribution. They are no schools, just constructs, reflecting some common features in each group.

 

Whether katchushi tsuba have been produced by armor makers and tosho tsuba by swordsmiths or not, nobody really knows. Starting from the early Edo period tsubako often signed their works. Thos who did not were tsubako, too, and some of them might have come from armor makers families.

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I consider Mariusz a friend but I disagree with this statement. My reasons are in my original post. These categories are not arbitrarily constructs of scholars but were based upon how the tsuba was made and the origin of the techniques used to make it. If they were really swordsmiths or armorsmiths making the early tsuba is not complete clear but the techniques that where used to make them were originally developed by armorsmiths or swordsmiths. Therefore it it logical to say a few early tsuba might have been the product of professional armorsmiths and swordsmiths.

 

Hi KM,

 

This whole idea of class change I think it a non issue because swordsmiths, tsuba makers, and armorsmiths were all of the same social class. A armorsmith or swordsmith making a few tsuba as a side job would not cause social chaos be it in the Late Edo Period or the Muromachi Period. In regards to your dimples on your tsuba surface to me they look like the result of rust that has destroyed parts of the surface and the fine file marks. This is not characteristic of great age but of poor preservation by a former owner. Please don't take it personally this is just my educated opinion and I could be wrong. As any serious examination of tosogu or nihonto can not be done by looking at photos on a computer screen.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[christianmalterre]

David,

 

speaking honestly now-

this Tsuba here is an 50-100$ candidate(if ever?-but of course,the market rules it of course?!?)

 

No discussion about the real Tosho or Katchushi here-at least,me here(and i do hope that i am not alone?)...

 

So??????????-Really????????

 

C´mon guys!

 

Christian