Sukaira

Cross posting this from the other General section

I have 4, well now 3 sayagaki in flight. Here is the first if anyone wants to take a crack at it. I tried to break this up into a few zoomed in photos since I think at full scale it would blur out a bit too much. Thanks in advance.

Does anyone know, if it were to fail would they give any input on what they thought it was? Say if it were to change attribution in their eyes, would you know the bucket it falls into or does it just fall back onto the TH cert?

This 49th Juyo is actually pretty similar as well. I am also aware that more blades were passing around this time.

Yep, some good points. I personally do not intend on getting rid of the sword regardless of the outcome as it's a beautiful piece that speaks to me. I bought it TH and the submission is more about the sword itself trying to discern the delta of Enju -> Yoshimasa and the fact that I have never held an Enju piece (and I have held a few) that has striking moist jigane (strong uruoi) like this. Also, I might still submit the original blade in the thread. In February I will be in Japan to inspect the final polish and my contacts over there have already suggested I submit it. For what it is worth, I showed this (Enju/Yoshimasa) sword to Bob Benson and his son Nicholas in Hawaii in much higher detail than posted here and they have asked me to send it to them in March and said - and I quote - "It is a good candidate for Juyo". They also suggested I send it to Tanobe for some thoughts on the conflicting attribution while it's there. All that being said, I appreciate all of the inputs and this is all part of the fun to me. I love good swords, at all levels

Awesome, thanks for this. Yeah Jussi really is the hero with his data-centric tendencies I do also have an Enju Kunisuke TH that has a Koson Kinpun Mei that the TH paperwork also acknowledges...maybe I should put that up too for funzies. In Tanobe's Yamashiro book he describes that Kunitoki is the Enju smith most are familiar with simply because he put out the most surviving blades from the Ko-Enju school (I assume Ko). Those numbers check out with that assertion as well.

thank you @Lewis B

I am going to call UPS and ask explicitly, but yeah I also have told my sellers to hold my swords in Japan for personal pick up in February. There is one that is going to ship soon and I will update this thread when it does to let everyone know if it actually works.

I looked around on here to see what was passing lately, but I didn't really find any of the latest sessions. Is there a thread showing what was passing lately? I know it has been tough, but it would be awesome to know specifically.

Definitely, which is why I wanted to ask around here first. Really what intrigues me the most is getting more insight into the sayagaki vs the NBTHK TH paper. Like I said above, I have a Rai Kunimitsu Juyo, a Hizen Juyo and a Masamitsu Juyo...I just have never submitted any myself, so I would be interested in submitting a mumei just to see what happens!

Right, but what I am saying is that if you have a clearly top quality piece to a well known smith, it is easy for the market and knowledgeable dealers to understand it's a masterpiece. You don't need a Juyo shinsa team to tell you that. That's why you have TH and Hozon master pieces selling for $50k+ without Juyo attribution.

Definitely a good response and gives me a bit to chew on! I actually already own a Rai Kunimitsu Juyo, a Hizen Juyo and a Masamitsu Juyo so I definitely have pieces to compare against

That's interesting, I had never considered sending it in for the same grade. Actually, the other day I was thinking about Juyo in general and it seems like it is really more useful (at least partially) for mumei blades in particular. Like what is the real point of putting an ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3 or something similar though the entire ladder? After Hozon, you already know what it is, it's been verified and I can't imagine the market doesn't understand what the value would be as is. Why would you need NBTHK Juyo shinsa to tell you your ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3 is an ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3? . I know there is some prestige and nuance to that, but as a whole, Juyo shinsa seems way. more useful for mumei blades, where actual attribution and research needs to go into identifying and preserving mystery blades.

I wanted to circle back on this topic and think about submitting my TokuHo mumei Enju instead. Wanted to get some general thoughts. I can actually find many examples of similar blades passing Juyo as this. I would also like to get some clarity on the NBTHK attribution it has (Enju) vs the Fukunaga Suiken sayagaki attribution (Awataguchi Yoshimasa), from NBTHK...like if it passed, would they still attribute it to Enju? I read a Darcy thread on here that said - "It has happened that Enju has been reattributed as Awataguchi. More than once." so who knows . This seems like a perfect test for that, with the opposing sayagaki. Will post some more pics soon, but blade is covered in chikei and displays strong uruoi jigane and a sparkling bright ko-nie hamon. Condition is wonderful. I also posted this blade in my other thread about Yamashiro. All things considered, a mumei Yamashiro (estimated 1288-1346) blade like this might make way more sense than the one originally posted in the thread.

@Ray Singer is the red Koto Afu translation still available?

I actually agree with you on all of this. I am also a fan of Tsukada-san and Touken Komachi. Wish I could have bought this one from them: https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A030817.html Only reason I say Seiyudo is that I think given all the tradeoffs, their sets of images let me comprehend the overall qualities of swords the fastest. They really need to add angles and at least one alternative lighting set though. That being said, having 3 swords from them I can tell you that if you hold your sword up to their photos, they are pretty much identical, in color etc. At least from that angle. I think I just trust them the most at this point because every sword I have seen in person at their shop or bought, has been flawless or nearly flawless, never have to worry about quality there because they have a really high bar for their swords. They also tell you, proactively if there is anything going on, even a little polish scratch without having to ask. Aoi Art on the other hand will sell you anything without a peep about any existing problems . You really have to pull it out of them. Pablo's site I always forget about as I have never bought from there. I think the format of his transaction has always been a bit tedious and embellished to me, but his photos are truly top notch.

You are not wrong sir

Their photos absolutely suck in general (except for viewing general nioiguchi and hamon hataraki/quality). Seiyudo has the best out of anybody imo. They are literally 1 for 1 with what you see in real life. I ended up purchasing a Rai Kunimitsu Juyo by proxy.

Wow this helps! I would actually say in general it is easily equal and probably above these in quality. Cannot really tell on that last Hitatsura looking one since it is just an oshigata. That is not to say that past Juyo session indicate current Juyo sessions. I would be curious to see what passed in Juyo 65.

I would be interested to see some references to compare against with the full matching signature 備前国往長船五郎友衛門尉清光作 if you have them!

The Kiyomitsu or the Sukesada?

I agree, Sue Bizen has some outstanding pieces. Yeah the Sukesada above is definitely not getting submitted for Juyo, but the Gorōzaemon Kiyomitsu might, depending on the Tanobe sayagaki being done. It is great to have these numbers, and your insights into these things are always super helpful! Interesting also that Sesko's index does not rank Yosōzaemon as Saijo, but it seems Fujishiro does? In any case Gorōzaemon and Yosōzaemon were contemporaries and both the top smiths of their branches (Kiyomitsu and Sukesada respectively) KIYOMITSU (清光), Eishō (永正, 1504-1521), Bizen – “Bishū Osafune Kiyomitsu” (備州長船清光), “Bizen no Kuni-jū Osafune Gorōzaemon no Jō Kiyomitsu” (備前国住長船五郎左衛門尉清光), “Bizen no Kuni-jū Osafune Nomura Gorōzaemon no Jō Kiyomitsu” (備前国住長船野村五郎左衛門尉清光), real name Nomura Gorōzaemon (野村五郎左衛門), son of Katsuhei Kiyomitsu, wazamono, jōjō-saku SUKESADA (祐定), 1st gen. Yosōzaemon, Eishō (永正, 1504-1521), Bizen – “Bizen no Kuni-jū Osafune Yosōzaemon no Jō Sukesada saku” (備前国住長船与三左衛門尉祐定作), “Bizen no Kuni-jū Osafune Hikobei dōshi Yosōzaemon no Jō Sukesada” (備前国住長船彦兵衛同子与三左衛門尉祐定, joint work of Yosōzaemon no Jō Sukesada and his father Hikobei Sukesada), “Bizen no Kuni-jū Osafune Sukesada saku” (備前国住長船祐定作), “Bizen no Kuni-jū Nakagawa Yosōzaemon Sukesada saku” (備前国住中川与三左衛門祐定作), son of the 1st gen. Hikobei Sukesada (彦兵衛祐定), real name Nakagawa Yosōzaemon (中川与三左衛門), he was the best of all Sukesada smiths, he signed the character for “Yo” (与) in the old variant (與) but in a kind of abbreviated manner which reminds of the character (烏), suguha with ko-ashi, gunome-chōji, hitatsura, notare, koshi-no-hiraita midare, long yō, occasionally a long kaeri, ō-wazamono ◎