Jake6500

Second time *That I know of* Consider this a fun game to gauge both the value and the market!

Nuh-uh, that's too easy! Everybody's gotta state a specific value to take part in the game, no easy way-outs! Based on how the last auction went my bet is 180,000 yen and the seller pulls it again at the last minute!

As the title suggests, this is a sequel to my post a week or so ago about the cool looking gold Meiji Tsuba... https://www.jauce.com/auction/p1149591169 The question is will the seller follow through this time and what price will they fetch this round? Last time we reached 132,000 yen, gentlemen place your bets! Edit: Previous thread for context - https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/49607-cool-looking-gold-tsuba/#comment-516533

I believe this is what Peter is referring to, the unnaturally shaped hand and curved fingers on the back and the curved forefinger on the front.

The hand is one thing about the design I did find a bit odd. It is probably the one part of the design I don't like. That and the linework feels a little stiff or unnatural. That said it struck me as a late design rather than a modern fake. I also trust Dale's judgment. If it was obtained for a reasonable price (along with the rest of the sword) I think it's a decent piece. Not something I would pay top dollar for but something I might buy.

This is a nice tsuba, the type of thing I would add to my own collection. I have a couple of tsuba with similar aesthetic depicting Daikoku and Ebisu which I have yet to post on the forum. Probably different schools/origins but slightly similar style.

Hey Ron, I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to narrow down the school or specific artisan but i would guess that they may have produced this tsuba in the Satsuma region, or as a commissioned work for a Satsuma samurai based on the apparent Shimazu crest on each of the "petals" of the tsuba. Maybe researching artisan schools from Satsuma (Southern Kyushu) might give you some leads.

It is a bit of a mysterious one and I'm not so sure it really is a "clock gear" design. That said, pocket watches or the like were items of Western ephemera. I could see why Japanese people in the Edo Period with a fascination for Western culture might want such a design. Essentially, it is for the same reason that we obsess over Tosogu in this forum!

Glad I'm not the only one who sees no connection between the "clock gear" tsuba and Christian iconography.

WOWWW! How did these Edo Period ukiyo-e artists achieve that incredible silhouette effect?

I'm actually not sure where the cross is meant to be here but this actually looks like a karmic wheel tsuba. There is an ongoing thread about Ohno tsuba near the top of the Tosogu forums right now that resemble this design. This tsuba if anything appears to have Buddhist iconography as was common in pre and early Edo tsuba, not Christian.

It sounds like Tim is saying the weight and thickness of the tsuba changed as uchigatana evolved around this timeframe from being a single-handed to a two-handed weapon. On a two-handed weapon you would presumably want a lower center of mass and a greater amount of weight as this would improve the weapons ability to cut. A thicker, heavier tsuba helps achieve this on later two-handed weapons. I had never thought about that possibility but it makes logical sense.

As usual Dale has pretty much said it all! A nice motif reflective of life in the Japanese rural countryside where this crop was commonly grown.

So I have seen exactly this design floating around... My inclination is that this is NOT a Christian tsuba and that the symbol is the Shimazu clan mon. I would say the distinct difference is in the placement of the horizontal axis. The Shimazu crest is characterised by the horizontal axis being perfectly centered (as we see in these examples) whereas discreet Christian tsuba or the Christian cross is generally characterised by having a higher placed horizontal axis instead of a symmetrical or centered one. The Shimazu clan was one of the most significant and powerful clans of the period so tsuba with symmetrical, perfectly centered horizontal axes should be considered Shimazu mon tsuba by default. One thing I will suggest is that Christian samurai, seeking to be more discreet may have used the Shimazu mon as an alternative, however this is still undoubtedly the Shimazu mon and not the Christian cross!

Didn't realize you were talking about these specific examples. I was just talking more generally.

I think it would depend in part upon where and when the tsuba was crafted. Christianity was definitely *present* in medieval Japan at different intervals and in different provinces, particularly in Northern Kyushu or in the Sendai region under the Otomo and Date clans respectively.

There are actually numerous tsuba with Christian iconography and the cross does appear somewhat frequently in tsuba, though usually more covertly.

Not a fan of the comparison to European knights as these sorts of East-West comparisons have resulted in severe misinterpretations about East Asian cultures already, the notion of "bushido" as "samurai ethic" (Nitobe basically concocted this notion of a unifying samurai ethic at the start of the Meiji Period) being a prime example. That aside, it appears that certain religious themes were certainly present on occasion in Tosogu. Themes and designs such as the buddhist karmic wheel or of the Dharma have made their way into tsuba and I have seen numerous examples of this already despite my relative inexperience as a collector.

I have no specific samples of my own to contribute but I think it would be a great idea.

As I just purchased it I have no way of knowing. Clearly it's not quite in pristine condition but if that mei is authentic I think I still got a pretty great bargain. Seems like it might be one of the artists earlier works pre 1770 based on the use of the family name Minamoto? I am pretty hyped about this one! Edit: Upon rethinking this, the inclusion of the title "Echizen Daijo" would indicate a post-1770 work, so 1770-1786.

I *believe* so. Same with the other tsuba example above. That and the matching theme to my last acquisition a couple days ago prompted me to pull the trigger on this auction even though it put my wallet on life support LOL

Possible Tsuba by the same artist? https://art.thewalte...warrior-in-the-rain/

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1148328335 After my recent Guan Yu tsuba acquisition, I had to do it =/ My wallet bleeds tears of blood but what do we think? I did some research about the artist and assuming this piece is authentic I think the price was decent, on the cheaper side if anything.

Wow that looks much better!

I was curious but god dam, that is one expensive book! On the one hand all indications are that it is worth the money, on the other hand I could buy a whole extra tsuba instead