Matsunoki

Hello Francois The auctioneers pics are in the links above but yes I will post more pics once I get them tidied up a bit. For example the Katana tsuka will not go back on without some slight easing, it was rock solid and had shrunk slightly. All the best Colin

Well, let’s be honest. It’s a bit of a rough wakizashi. It is a genuine old Samurai item but with several problems. The polish is in poor condition, it has chips to the edge and the koshirae (fittings) do not look particularly good. If we could see the nakago (tang) and an overall picture of the blade with no mounts whatsoever then we might know more. But based on what the images show us, I don’t think it’s one to chase…..unless very cheap. I don’t think there is much to study in this condition. All the best Colin

This might help 🙂🙂…….THE ORIGINAL POST WAS IN SPANISH SO I TRANSLATED. THE OP HAS NOW EDITED IT INTO ENGLISH. I’M NOT GOING DAFT!! Hello, group. First of all, I'm from Spain and my English isn't the best Anyway, I want to share this wakizashi that I saw on a website and I want to buy a real piece to study, not to practice, so I'm here to hear new opinions.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/lockdales/catalogue-id-lo10206/lot-03238198-86b6-4d4d-93a8-af7000e5a8d9#lotDetails https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/lockdales/catalogue-id-lo10206/lot-c0c2dc01-16ad-45c6-a025-af7000e5a8d9 These links should still work.

Are you sitting comfortably?….then I’ll begin. This goes on a bit!…sorry. I am recounting this event, not for egotistical reasons, but because it’s almost unbelievable nowadays. Last week, during my routine trawl of online auction sales etc I came across a few swords in a smallish regional auction. This auctioneer sells coins, Militaria, medals, weapons with a few Japanese pieces from time to time. Two SEPARATE LOTS caught my eye…a Wakizashi with just one “collage” image showing it dismantled. Looked decent. One member on here even posted an image of the Mei asking for help! Brian persuaded him to try it himself 🙂 The other was a large katana, very briefly catalogued “unable to remove tang cover” sold “as is”. Looked very very decent. I left it another couple of days and then had another look at them online. Decided to spend a few more minutes enlarging the 2 images. Then I noticed…..both had a large dragon nicely lacquered on the saya. Backwards and forwards between the images…surely not….oh yes….the Auctioneer had split up a daisho! I asked for a couple more images of the katana…..sure enough…matching Hawk chasing sparrows tsuba….matching dragon saya….no doubt a Daisho mounting. By now each had 45 people “watching” online. The wak had attracted several punchy online pre-auction bids but the katana was sitting at £230!?! The auctioneers obviously didn’t have a clue what they had done so, on sale day I drive on dark icy roads to have an “in hand” look. Get there and the swords are not out for viewing……they are locked in a back room in case someone cuts themselves……but I gain access. There are some issues…..the Ito is damaged…..one menuki missing….one horn kashira lost. The wak has a lovely Mt Fuji midare hamon with sunagashi and dense hada etc. The katana is very substantial and from the one online image I thought it classic Shinshinto….and so it was. A beautiful heavy blade with bo hi both sides, a lovely sugata, soft old sashikomi polish, active nioi choji hamon with delicate ko nie and ji nie etc etc . Sure enough the tsuka was utterly jammed, no one had even tried to remove it so I left well alone. The sword was almost (I hoped) guaranteed to be signed and dated…..classic high quality shinshinto. Worth a gamble I thought. It will be ubu and signed and maybe dated. Both swords filthy but blades in good original polish…a few scratches on the wak but that’s all. Now the heart was really thumping. I register to bid and enter the saleroom with half an hour to go. There are only two other people there….that’s all. Auctioneer, a lovely young lady, was in full swing selling bayonets and a few guns. The swords were consecutive lots with the wak coming up first. With three lots to go 3 members of the auctioneers staff come in with phones in hand and I listen as they contact the phone bidders. I could clearly overhear each conversation. Couldn’t believe what I heard….all of them were only bidding on the Katana, not on the wak which came up first. Surely someone else had twigged they were a daisho? Panic…..had I got the lots numbers wrong or mixed up. Calm down, you’ve checked them at least ten times. So, the wak comes up. No phone bidders interested, no room bidders interested (I think they’d gone to sleep!), just me vs the internet so I decided to bid whatever it took…I’d come this far….the red mist descended. I bought it for a very reasonable bid. Now the katana….now I’ve got to buy it whatever…..me vs the 3 phones. Can’t believe it but they drop out and it gets knocked down to me again, very reasonably imo. Im stunned…..no one else saw they were a daisho???….and one with lovely blades and (dirty) mounts! Did that really just happen or was it another optimistic dream? Grateful thanks to the auctioneers for a couple of truly lousy online images and bare bones descriptions. Pay up and drive home almost shaking with excitement and disbelief….which at my age doesn’t happen that often. Out come the tsuka removal tools. It (katana)definitely hadn’t been off for eons….possibly never since it was last in Samurai hands. Took me half an hour of very gentle persuasion before a lovely nakago with full length hi and the Mei of Nobukazu (noted pupil of Korekazu) was revealed together with a date of 1855. No doubt in my mind that it’s “right” ….it’s a really beautiful and hugely impressive blade. Some tsuka restoration required but the blades, saya and tsuba simply needed the appropriate cleaning. It was whilst doing that that I noticed the dragons were lacquered “in confrontation”….a lovely subtle touch. A truly bizarre chain of events which you would never believe could occur nowadays. All the best. Colin

Hello again Vitaly I can understand why you might think plastic, but from the images it looks like you have a perfectly “normal” set of fittings (koshirae). Maybe not high quality but certainly from the samurai era. The black elements that you question are almost certainly lacquered horn which was very commonly used on the koi guchi (the mouth of the saya), the kurigata (fitting on the saya for the cord) and the kashira. The red saya itself is simply lacquered wood.

Hello Vitaly, Your menuki depict Peony flowers….a popular subject in many Japanese art forms. Yes the fuchi (ie the fitting at the tsuba end of the tsuka) should match the Kashira (fitting at the pommel end of the tsuka). However there is one common exception where the fuchi is a “normal” metal fitting but the kashira is black polished horn (usually black buffalo). That black horn style was usually worn for formal court occasions. To my eye the tsuba looks a pretty basic cast piece ( as opposed to the more normal forged and folded iron examples) I’m sure others will add more detail….or correct me!! All the best. Colin

Looks like a modern “grip” made up for iai. It looks well done but can’t really say any more….except I’ve never seen that on a Samurai period sword.

Worth adding a bit about the psychology of auctions……it’s not always a simple or obvious matter! No matter how disciplined, whether they be collector or dealer, buyers do tend to get carried away at auctions. You try and sell them “whatever” for £10000 face to face in “cold blood” and they pontificate and hum and hah and offer you a lot less - maybe £7000 - if you’re lucky nowadays! That is because the buyer is not in a competitive situation and they feel in control. No one is threatening to take it away from them. Put the same thing in an auction and 99 times out of 100 they will totally forget about the buyers premium (or just plain ignore it) and descend into the red mist of competition. They are not in control anymore. They don’t want to lose it. They didn’t want to get beaten. They WERE going to buy it. They can’t haggle….it’s a trap! Bang, the hammer drops. A few minutes/hours/days later the penny drops and the awful truth about what the have just done dawns on them…..but it’s too late….they own it….the invoice has arrived . So, although an Auctioneer will take a large cut, it is often compensated for by the higher price that they VERY often achieve. Also when selling multiple lots via an auction always consider the order in which you wish things to be offered. Sometimes an auctioneer will “save the best till last” to keep bums on seats. Not always a good idea. Potential buyers will often “sit on their hands” through the earlier lots, waiting instead for the best bits at the end. Result can be lower prices for the earlier pieces. However put the best in first and watch the “bun fight” that ensues. Everyone wants them, prices soar, the atmosphere builds, but only a few buyers can actually be successful. Everyone else is then left still wanting to own something and often chases the lesser pieces perhaps more than they should and definitely more than they would have done if they had already spent their pennies on the early expensive stuff. I’m sure we can all relate to some of the above🙂🙂😳😳 I was for years the consultant on Oriental Art for a large auctioneer ….seen it first hand from both sides of the fence. Just some ramblings. Colin

John, just a word of caution as Barry says you don’t want to damage the Ito. It is very easy to damage old Ito. Over time it deteriorates naturally and a toothbrush, even a soft one could probably cause fraying. The “mud” on yours does look a bit like ingrained grease from handling over the many years and if it is then that is really tough to shift. The areas where the Ito is twisted or in the knot high points are especially vulnerable.It’s so easy to end up wishing you’d never started….. speaking from experience! All the best. Colin

Totally different blade.(I made the same mistake🙂)

Please show the nakago as well.

Hello Peter That is a difficult question to which there are several potential answers. Basically it depends on two things - How long do you want to spend doing it….quickly or spread over time? Do you wish to achieve the absolute “top dollar” for each piece in your collection or instead take a swings and roundabouts approach? I’m speaking from the position of having been a dealer in Japanese Meiji Art for over 35 years and also having just sold my own collection of said Japanese Art. If you wish it to be done quickly and with as little pain as possible a top class auctioneer is your best bet. It is likely that they will achieve the best current market prices but of course they will take a large cut out of the proceeds. A “one owner collection” is a great attraction for auctioneers and you could doubtless negotiate a good sellers commission (but I doubt you will influence their buyers commission). If your were prepared to do the cataloguing for them it would ensure correct descriptions and save them a lot of work. It depends a bit on the overall value of what you allow them to handle. Another option is to find a dealer that will take them all……advantages include no commissions to pay, no descriptions to do, immediate payment(if you find the right dealer) but you will not get top dollar for obvious reasons…he has to make his margin and he is investing a lot of money up front. You could let a dealer pick over the collection and select what would doubtless be the best or most desirable pieces but then you get left with the rest….and word quickly spreads that “x bought all the best bits”….. The next option is to sell them yourself, one at a time to known contacts and friends, or maybe via this Forum. That requires a lot of your time over a longer period and can be frustrating. It can also cause you problems with dissatisfied customers….some people like to play games sadly. But it can be fun if you can relax and enjoy it. Observations of the “For Sale” section of this Forum suggests that things don’t exactly fly off the shelves right now….the market is slow or depressed for a wide variety of reasons….mostly all the crap that is going on in the world making people nervous. This slowing of the market is not specific to just Japanese Swords. It also depends on the quality of the collection. Things that are seriously good will sell more quickly…there are always rich people looking for the very best. Things that are cheap will also sell quickly for the obvious reason. Things that are caught somewhere in the middle market are the toughest and that’s where an auction might be better. There is no perfect solution…..each has its own pros and cons.….…… Just a few ramblings. Good luck with whichever route you take. All the best Colin

Gotcha! I really should pay more attention. Now I feel even more stupid than usual 🙂🙂

The tsuba above is multiple layers of different alloys which are revealed when carved deeply in guribori style. See this link https://www.mokumegane.org/e/guribori.html

It certainly looks like corrosion of some sort or maybe a stain. Doesn’t look deep. Doesn’t really look like spider rust as that always shows up “rust orange” (or black if neutralised). Does look as if it is creeping across the blade. Does it exist along the mune? Does it exist all along the blade? Are there pits within it? Just wonder if the inner saya has been contaminated with something that has crept across the blade from it resting on the mune. Something acidic?

I agree completely. We could spend a lifetime looking for an available true daisho from samurai times. I suspect most “daisho” worn by most samurai didn’t even have matching koshirae….simply a long sword and a random short sword that looked close enough! They didn’t have the money for anything else.

The phrase “true daisho” has always niggled me. I assume by true daisho we mean matching blades by the same smith. Do we also mean blades in the same style and/or forged at the same time? I’ve never seen an actual accepted definition of “true daisho” and no definition of daisho that I’ve seen even mentions same smith etc. I always thought a daisho was simply a long sword and a short sword in matching koshirae, either katana/wakizashi or Tachi/Tanto Has anyone ever seen a “true daisho” excluding gendai and Shinsakuto? Anyone actually own one?

Thank you both. interesting to see Kaga oshigata that suggests they did use this type of hardening with full muneyaki and the subtle variety of jiri (excluding the suriage examples of course) Good spot…definitely the mune machi has been moved up a bit….but they did not attempt to create a new hamachi at that time. Of course it could have had a small previous full machi okuri as well. This would contribute to the apparently slightly low mekugi ana. In hand I still feel the nakago is not shortened but it’s a close call and I would not bet on it. Many such wakizashi had rather short stubby nakago at this time I believe. Possibly had the nakago edges reworked, definitely had the mune machi moved up a bit. Almost certainly Muromachi. Anyone else …..please feel free Thank you all. Colin

Please excuse my increasing misunderstanding……why are we comparing the nakago of a large shinshinto katana with that of a typical muromachi period hirazukuri wakizashi? Surely wildly different sugata hundreds of years apart.

Thank you Michael, please persevere with my lack of knowledge! The second oshigata you show (Bingo Fuyuhiro?) is certainly very interesting with the very similar hardening and lively muneyaki. I can see how that nakago could be shortened and reworked to perhaps give a more Soshu feel and a Masamune Mei added?? …..now removed ….leaving behind a confusing nakago? That would also explain the mekugi ana appearing to be a little low? But why use an obviously inappropriate jiri? …….oh, I’ve just noticed your word “finally” above…..sorry!

Thanks Kirill, as confirmed above ( Jacques) the nakago jiri is indeed typical Kaga…..I didn’t know that. My initial searching cannot find a similar Kaga Kiyomitsu hamon (either sword or oshigata). My library is very small. If you have any spare time could you show me one? Greatly appreciate your help. All the best. Colin

Its strange, in hand it isn’t nearly as “apparent” as in the images. On the ha edge there has been some deep erosion by rust roughly halfway along which I think is what makes that edge looks far worse. The mune edge appearance has been a bit affected by the rather clumsy removal of the Mei. However the mune edge at the jiri does look to taper a bit more sharply than perhaps it should. No changes in any patina nor any noticeable signs of reworking but then if was done a few hundred years ago there wouldn’t be! Thank you both….it makes me look more closely.

Thanks Michael, I will look at Fuyuhiro. To help me if you have time please could you say why you think nakago is reshaped…..which areas? I was convinced it was original except for the removed Mei.

…..but as Mark said above….. it’s best to leave the blade in the shirasaya and the tsunagi in the koshirae…..that’s the way it’s safest and it’s the way it’s meant to be.