Curran

That is exactly what I mean... They took a photo of the tsuba they are selling and overlaided or photoshopped it over the picture of the Sukashi Tsuba book. The page is identical, but the image of the tsuba is NOT! The image of the book is a partially falsified image. The designs are the same, but the one in the book is slightly thinner and more elegant. For starters: (1) The one in the actual book has no small sukashi opening under the kogai ana. (2) The sekigane are different. (3) The seppa dai on the one in the auction has a little node on it that doesn't exist in the photo in the actual book. I think I am just amazed at the effort the guy went to in order to sell the tsuba. That Buy It Now price is darn low for a Hayashi. This one is a bear trap he might be hoping someone steps in. Yahoo!Japan has gotten much worse in the past year or so. Many more crude gimei being dumped there now, with Posservice often buying them up and dumping them on USA eBay. Other sellers shill their own auctions and the one seller that I respected a bit pulled his most recent auction shortly before the finish when it wasn't getting enough bids. I was high bidder at the time and it had NBTHK Hozon papers. The seller of the doctored photo tsuba (sw_libro) doesn't even rank in the pantheon of bad sellers. I'm glad to see that this tsuba hasn't got any bids yet. Hasn't fooled anyone? At 20,000 I'd almost take it out of perverse curiosity to have the design for a bit. Worst case it is a paperweight for my desk.... but still shocked at what lengths he has gone to spin this auction. If anyone else has the Sukashi Tsuba book, crack it open to page 114 and take a comparison. The fonting and layout is very distinct. It is suppose to be the Sukashi Tsuba book. Curran

Moderators and others please jump in and correct me on this one- I'd like to be wrong. http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b89504990 Looks nice, and the book photographed is suppose to be the Sukashi Tsuba book. If you own the book and flip it open to page 114 you see why yes-- it is the same tsuba. OR IS IT? Dah dah dum.... The tsuba is not the same as on page 114 of the Sukashi Tsuba book. Sure, design is the same as the actual tsuba from the book, but the tsuba for sale has been photoshopped or otherwise superimposed on an image of page 114 of the book and added to the auction. Perhaps it is naivete, but I am surprised to what level the seller (and he or she is often a seller) has stooped. It must be intentional. It isn't the same tsuba in the book, though the page is otherwise identical. My understanding of Japanese is improving, but still limited. Does the seller say anything to explain this in his auction? I read something about a crack, but am unsure to what or where he is actually referring.

Mr. Trotter, Welcome to the forum. Thank you for the contributions you have made. I think I still technically represent one of the 'young ones'. It is a good community here. We look forward to future posts and think it might be nice to hear a bit more about WWII era gendai. All in time. Curran

Dear Piers, I do not understand. I am 99% sure it is authentic, though I wonder why the shakudo fukurin. What am I missing? I am still learning Japanese and have ways to go. Does the auction actually say "No claims. No Returns."? Yahoo!Japan can be dangerous, but I thought this might be a safe one for Ken.

Ken (Mantis Dude), My email is glitching this morning, so I'm going to post this here. It has one day on it, and figured it might interest you: http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w28955093 Still fairly priced, though agent fees for Japanese auctions can run about +20% now. Nearly as painful as an auction house. Its been a while since I purchased anything from the auctions, though still fun to look.

Waynes, I can understand the attribution, as Kaga, Echizen and Owari work all spun off out of the Mino school in late Muromachi to the "Shinto" sword period. Darcy or someone else can correct me in that I usually associate IyeTsugu with 1570 to 1700 work. I think the Iyetsugu name is mostly associated with Shinto. I thought this sword was earlier than that. I can understand the attribution as a good one, but I felt it was more mainstream muromachi Mino. As stated before, I am more of a fittings collector these days- so take my word lightly. The workperiod of IyeTsugu line may be earlier than I remember and yours on the early side of that timeline. Look up "Kaga" in the Connosseuirs Guide under the Shinto section. They probably mention the IyeTsugu name. Also Kaga (Kashu) was big enough that there is a Kaga Taikan (big book of Kaga) and also a Kaga Shinto Shu (Shinto swords of Kaga). Someone on the list might own a copy and be able to provide info. Curran Ps. Do not confuse Kaga IyeTsugu (aka IeTsugu) with Bizen IyeTsugu (Ietsugu). Bizen Iyetsugu looks/is very different.

From memory: Kashu Iyetsugu (or Ietsugu in some texts) is a longish line of at least 4 but probably 6 or 7 smiths working in from late muromachi forward into shinto and maybe shin-shinto period. Original influence is Mino. Usually the nakago has a distinct Kaga shape (Kashu = Kaga). I think I sold all my Kaga swords books. Just the fittings Kaga Kinko Taikan left, so I cannot pull up any oshigata.

Peter, as far as I know you own at least 2 Nobuiye... if not more. I think I like your most recent one the best, though the sukashi one is striking. Okay, okay.... I get the deal with original Kaneiye. Can someone loan me one to study? This is half in jest, but I do envy Rich his chance to study both in hand at the same time. Back to Doc John's question: comment on this tsuba.... What is it? A late Edo copy of a Kaneiye by perhaps a Aizu Shoami artisan or the likes? Doesn't quite seem Saga Kaneiye, and it isn't signed at all. Any further comment gents (und Dames)? Curran Ps. Milt, put Onions next to it and my dad would like one order... Actually, I think I know from memory the tsuba you are referencing. I believe that is more Saga Kaneiye. More interesting than most I have seen. Someone please loan me a Kaneiye! (repeat, this is a joke... but real Kaneiye are most welcome.)

Just shooting from the hip here: Any reason we aren't jumping to Saga Kaneie here? Kaneiye is a true weakpoint in my knowledgebase, but I expect better iron out of him and much of this tsuba says later Edo to me. Maybe I have it backwards, but the mountains being rounded vs. more pointed is something that points away from Saga Kaneiye. The punt is better defined than I would expect in Saga Kaneiye, but the low relief doesn't argue for anyone else. It might also be a product of one of the Shoami schools. John, if you have insight into the tsuba- then maybe wait for a few more responses, then share with us what you know. I cannot divine much special on this tsuba, as Kaneiye has rarely got my attention. One knowledgable dealer did say to me once that the true Kaneiye feel exponentially different in person. I don't think I've ever had the chance to sit down with one and study it.

Between the basket weave pattern in iron, the mokku shape, and the seppa dai, kozuka and kogai anas (holes), a good guess would be that it is late Edo a Bushu-Ito school tsuba. Either query Bushu-Ito on the internet, or read up in Harry Watson's english translations of the of Nihon To Koza (Kodogu volume). Curran

Rickisan, Q1: Answer... yes. Q2: Depends on the polisher, horimono, and sort of rust vs. patina. I'd say a good one wouldn't clean patina out of a bonji horimono, but then I've seen all sorts of things. Personally, I like it when a horimono has developed a deep color like the nakago without any active rust. On koto swords where the polish is really beautiful yet the horimono shows darkish patina along the lines of a well cared for nakago- I find it very beautiful. But all it takes is one nit-wit to offer to clean your sword for you. They rub uchiko into the groves and trying to wipe it out, potentially scratching the polish from the ridge of the horimono outward. If you have a sword with extra nice horimono, clean it yourself. Even some of the most experienced "old hands" can be destructive when it comes to uchikoing swords with horimono.

Ford has posted a very complete answer on this one. I learned a bit of new info from his post. Thank you F.H.. The short answer is that it is late Edo or Meiji and though condition is good and it is shiny-sparkly, it is not exactly a great piece of work. $399 seems very high to my frugal nature, and your contact with him makes the seller sound a bit of a crazy. My opinion: For $700 to $800 you can get some very good tsuba of leagues better workmanship and artistic merit.

I would not have guessed this as Kagehide work. Kagehide work while quiet and a bit lacking in distinction, is still a pretty and tight piece of workmanship. Either this Aoi Arts blade is tired, crudely polished, or otherwise not right. While I would associate the jigane with Oei Bizen line of work, I would have thought it Bizen from early Nambokchu and possibley by a lesser 2nd or arguably 3rd tier smith. Fred has a nice Kagehide up: http://www.nihonto.com/kagehide.html While Kagehide is sort of second tier Bizen smith, I find it very calm and skillfull. The one on Aoi Arts is a mess. I think this is a Juyo paper for the signature. Not the cleanest example for kantei. Curran

Photos anyone? Wish work didn't have me pinned here. It has been a while since I've been to the San Fran show, and yes... certainly the USA shows are the best place to find and buy good fittings at the best prices. Curran

I think we are all thinking along the same time period, but is the jigane not a little weak for Kunihiro? I haven't even hit the books yet to look up typical hada.

Dear Guido, Nice little tsuba. Most certainly not typical Norisuke work! Yes, you are probably on the right track pursuing the Ikkin line or that general area. That is not a very strong area for me, and I have been trying to increase my library and familiarity with work from it. Nice little tsuba. Many of the late Edo guys jumped schools several times and sometimes jumped names with it. See the "Toshitsugu" tsuba example at http://www.tetsugendo.com/ Sometimes I wonder if a name or two got dropped along the way. During the course of tracking down an unusual work recently, I came across one fellow who had changed his name about 13 times. It is possible your tsuba is either a transition name of a student, or just an unknown student.

The Norisuke grandson signed Yoshisuke, though his artname was Noriaki. I did not know there even was an entry in Haynes under 'Noriaki' for Yoshisuke. If not the Norisuke grandson, then your tsuba smith is probably unrecorded. I went through the Norisuke book and could not find an alternate reference mei for Noriaki, though Wakayama states in his Owari tsuba lecture that he has seen a tsuba by Yoshisuke signed "Iwata Noriaki saku". From memory, it was Noriaki's widow who provided the NBTHK with the remaining Norisuke family books and tools around 1970 or 1971. If a reference example exists for Noriaki, they would have it. Yoshitsuke looks to have used the same or similar chisels for signing as the shodai and nidai Norisuke. Your signature looks much finer than his Yoshisuke signatures.

Morita-san, Thank you very much! I thought it read Toshi (or Yoshi), but was not 100% confident and I was very uncertain of the rest. I read up on Toshinori, and he was one of many students in very late Edo. A book states he passed in 1897, and that his daughter became a goldsmith. Good study piece. I greatly appreciate the help. Curran

Dear list, I am not able to read this tsuba signature. I do not have a better photo. Any one able to take a good guess at it. It is a Tanaka tsuba, but I am trying to figure out which smith. Thank you very much for any help! Curran

Probably flower cutting? Good florists use a short blade sometimes with forward curvature. Grip is held sharp edge facing thumb and they do sort of a sholder pulling motion like rowing when the oar handles are nearest, on the way to cycling the oars farthest. Makes for mean cutting action. I always wait for them to cut their thumbs, but they never do.

In the one photo of hamon it shows that as you follow the hamon from kissaki to nakago, after the crests there will be a collection of nie in the trough after it. Old Japanese standby is that this trait usually points to Mino school. It is a fairly reliable old trick, though not perfect. For that and other reasons, I felt it was probably Mino though I could see some Soshu activity along the hamon. Is there the faint bit of mune tempering? Mino+Soshu = Darcy's call for possibly Naoe Shizu makes a lot of sense. When it comes to swords, I'd listen to Darcy's opinion over my own. But I still have the upper hand with kodogu for now.... It might be worth a submit to the next NTHK shinsa in the USA. Curran

Interesting thread. Fred Geyer has done much work on the religious symbols in some tsuba. He might be the person to ask. This cross or X shape tsuba appears in some of the Higo area work. In the Baur collection there is even a Mitsuhiro tsuba (the 1000 monkeys theme) done in this shape. I do not think the shape means much. I have wondered about this tsuba here: http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/TSUBA22.htm It belongs to Boris. My religious upbringing is fuzzy, but I saw this image all through my youth. The bird doing the nose dive above the pile of brush or kindling, with the three hills (of Calgary) in the distance. From memory, the cross was always dead center above the brush and below the bird. Protestant symbol though.... How many protestant christians in Japan? Clever speculation by Bugyotsuji. Makes for a good riddle. Curran

Dear Guido, It has changed exponentially since the 1990s. Thanks to the internet, cell phones, hybridization of ATM cards with other accounts.... Easy ex: With your basic bank info and a little personal info a good hacker/spoofer/fraudster can get phone access to your account and build out from there. They can then apply for a wave of minor accounts and link them to yours and rip them off with advances, etc... very fast. The good ones can rip $100,000+ out of a bank account within about 7 to 10 days. From discussions with people in the security side of this: Citibank has been a repeated target and they are slow to improve security, plus those india call centers of theirs are not secure.

Dear Stephen, The shape of the tsuba is that often seen in the Satsuma tsuba. Do you have the little Satsuma book? Perhaps Milt or someone else does and can post an example. The horse briddle bits is something I do not recall seeing on tsuba very often.

I think 97.5% of the time I agree with Peter. This may be one of those times when I don't, but I should explain why. I've owned several late Tanaka school tsuba and handling them sticks into your head as they are pleasant and have a distinct degree of quality, though sometimes lacking "soul". I've sold all mine off, though my wife and I both like Jeff's example. I would think that someone would gimei (false signature) a piece by this fellow given that it is just late Edo student Tanaka, but then I've seen gimei before of lesser known late Edo individuals. Some truly beautiful tsuba with signatures that are not correct. I don't think this one is gimei. I think the workmanship is good enough and the signature good enough that it *should* pass shinsa as authentic. But there are enough minor variations of the signature and such that I doubt the conservative Yoshikawa NTHK would pass it and think maybe only 60% likely the NBTHK would pass it. All that said, this is a nicer tsuba. Hope you like it Jeff. Curran