Adversary

I hear this all the time from other industries, and it gets annoying, especially in the blindly flag-waving US automotive industry, where many of the aftermarket companies have farmed everything out to China to save money. The thing is... the Chinese will make whatever they are paid to make. There are staggeringly talented/skilled craftsmen in China. But some guy from California paying him $300 to build a sword is not going to get that level. People (not saying people here) dont seem to understand that the poor quality argument concerning Chinese goods has nothing to do with skill, but everything to do with people here wanting to make an easy buck. The Chinese make crap because we want a $3000 sword/set of rims/cylinder heads, but we only pay them $200 to built it... I saw a Chinese smith making katana that were pushing the $8K mark, maybe more. Forget the name. In a pure blind comparison... leaving all sentimentality and bias out of it, I wonder how that guy's swords would stack up against a modern nihonto maker who's stuff sells around the same range.

I'm curious. Reading this, and the linked thread (and others like it), whats to stop a Japanese Smith, say one of these who was having trouble making ends meet, or really... any Japanese smith for any reason, from moving off the island and producing his own blades elsewhere? Perhaps not worth it to specifically up and move to do this, but do none of these smiths ever emigrate? If someone did that, they could skirt the whole certain amount of blades per year rule, and do what they want, otherwise within tradition and with a legit signature. Would this still be considered true nihonto? If a Chinese smith, otherwise instructed by a Japanese one, and doing things entirely within tradition, cannot technically create 'nihonto', then could an ex-patriot Japanese smith still call his nihonto? Has this ever been encountered?

Damn Raymond... if this is the stuff you sell to get the stuff you really want... one wonders what your keepers look like...

Oh, i definitely agree. Though, its hard when it seems everything (to date anyways) i like is found on these sites that take mugshot-like photos (very descriptive mind you) of blade profiles, nagakos and kissakis... and kinda miss the... i cant even describe it... the 'art' of the blade perhaps. I mean, i understand these photos are useful for the blade-whisperers and collectors... to discern health, issues, flaws, etc... but there is no 'feel'... that i get anyways, from site like, say aoi art, or eJapan. Some ov the members here, such as Raymond singer, or the Canadian site, take wonderful pics that can give at least some sort of feel i suppose. Problem is... i've fallen in love with only three swords so far, and all have been on aoi or eJapan. I guess you kinda just have to order it and wait to see what you get... if you like the look and feel... if it speaks to you. I suppose you could ask your sword broker to ask for these details from the Japanese end... but then you get a child's game of 'telephone'... only further limited by the severe frustrations of electronic (mis)communication, translations, and further miscommunications. I bet that would be a LOT of work... if it even paid off. I just recently went through this very issue. I mean, i only bought a Chinese forged blade... but the ONLY one i could find i liked was in the Netherlands, on one site, with a buy it now. Vague on-site purchasing details. No one answered phone calls. No one answered on-site messages. No one on sword forums knew a thing about them. No one answered E-mails until i asked Jussi to message the guy (he knows him) for me and prompt him (and Jussi was more than nice enough to do it!). I got two very terse, quick Emails out of the effort, which took a week, and it was enough i decided not to drag this out over three more to have my (simple, quick) questions answered. I pulled the trigger, got hammered on my end by hidden costs (i could have been warned about), and i got something that was not quite what i ordered... one very key detail was off. Well... i'm still happy, it was a deal, (i can spend $150-200 and fix the issue and still be ahead). But if i wasn't... well... i'd be married to it. The point of all that... was that i can imagine the Netherlands is a lot easier to deal with, and communicate with, than Japan, there are no regulations or laws jamming up the process, and it was a LOT less money tied up in limbo. I'm not sure i'd have the patience to go through this for a nihonto...

I agree with everything. I've been learning more, every day. The only part i hadn't considered was the thinning of the blades over the eras. I'd always wondered about the robustness of a 400-500 year old blade, in terms of theoretical 'use' strength, and i guess certainly that would have an effect. Is the difference here what some people mean when they say "healthy" blade, over those who do not? Anyways... i already bought a Chinese blade... the best of them for what thats worth. So i have something to appreciate in my house, or to use should I get into JSA. It will be some time likely before i can start shopping for a nihonto again, but by then i should be a lot more read up on what i need and what i like. There are two blades i have on my radar right now. Should financial situations shift... i'll be after them (though i'm sure they'll be gone by then). One is edo era, and on eJapan, the other is post-war gendaito and on aoi. The former i could see as purely collectible, and the latter i could see as a sword i could use. I'd more or less decided on a modern sword for use in the beginning. I just liked the idea that they hadn't been polished more than once, and were still exactly how they came from the smith's hands (no shortened sword, no polished off niku, and no rusty nagako). Hell... i'd commission a new one if i could. As i have said before, the one thing i'm not interested in doing is having a blade polished. That will double the price on a cheaper blade, not to mention the hassles. The ones in the links (in my range anyways) definitely look a bit rough.

I dont know what it is... but i REALLY like that #11. If i was building a sword with antique fittings, i'd have been all over that. I RARELY find tsuba's i like... old or new.

Can someone explain what this means? I've seen it on their site many times: Aoi Art estimation papers - Whole oshigata There is a blade i'm very interested in on that site, and if some money falls into my lap, i'll be after it.

Interesting thoughts on this here. I would have thought that these super valuable/important juyo blades would end up in papered (equally as important/nice) fittings. The ones that end up in koshirae anyways.

I saw that, and yeah... i really actually like that one, but i definitely want a katana, not a wakizashi. Plus... even if that price was in Canadian (which i assume its not)... well out of my budget.

This is all very interesting. In my own circles (automotive) i am a master grinder, and thats what it is sometimes... grinding them down... and i get the best deals. Thing is, thats MY world, i know it very well. With this one its obviously very prudent to ask first. I wont be learning enough about this world quick enough to feel confident bargaining, so it seems to me best just to have someone else, who knows the game to do it. I dont mind paying for expertise... people pay for mine... as long as its fair. That said, after a couple PM's and doing some more research it would seem its just not going to happen. Sadly, at this point at least... i think i'm going to have to bow out. By the sound of things, unless a sweet deal pops up in Canada... which so far seems unlikely, as i doubt dealers here would go through all the hassle to bring in really cheap blades... its just going to add up way too much. According to my last fee/import/tax/shipping estimate... i'd need to find a good blade for well under 2K US. I guess i'm waiting again. I assumed there would be a few fees and costs to bring a Japanese sword over, but it seems a bit more than that, and its just not realistic for me. Heh... well... its was fun to dream.

Curious, which of those 400 links are these services? Has anyone used them? Whats the end cost (above sword cost), all said and done?

Damn thats gotta feel good man. Congrats. I'm still working towards mine...

That god damn fentanyl mess is trickling down all over the place. A couple different industries i'm on the periphery of are dealing with a far more aggressive customs than they've ever seen before. Its a pretty recent thing, and a Pacific thing (largely Asia however). Not sure if thats whats holding YOU up, but certainly many other people are feeling it.

I found a couple interesting pieces (or rather, Jussi found them for me, swell guy that he is!) but they're on less than gaijin-friendly sites. One has NO English at all... and the only thing i could even guess at was the nagasa length. One is on Tokenhataya, and there are two on Token.net (Token sugita?). Was basically wondering, after paying the listed price on the page, what i'm looking at in terms of whatever will cost me money (shipping, import/export taxes, Cdn taxes/duty, etc.)? How long does it take? Anything i need to know beyond this stuff? Do they negotiate on prices on these sites? Anything else would be appreciated too, translations. Notes on smiths, history, anything like ratings if they're there, papers, etc.

Yes... like i said before, it hits off most of the boxes nicely, but at the end of the day, i have to like what i'm looking at. I like simple, not even sold on bo-hi really... let alone horimono. But its the sanskrit bits... to me anyways, I cant do it. it just doesn't look right.

(Sigh...) Well, lets call it a day on this one then. Clearly there has been a breakdown in communications, as is far too common with the internet... despite my tremendous efforts to be as explicit and clear as i can be (and i'm good at this). You could not be further off the mark. I really appreciate those who are trying to help me, and i am learning. We'll figure this out. Funny enough, on the topic of good whisky, i had a nice pour of Redbreast... the Masamune of Irish whisky's tonight. I'm definitely a classic (true Scottish only) single malt guy, but damn... i highly recommend it!

Its a discussion. Discussions take many different paths, with many different people to come to a point. I think its been pretty clear. Thats what i love about the internet forum concept, often its the off-topic tangents where i'll learn the most about the topic at hand.

I could say the same thing about cars. But then you get people telling me that an 80's Volvo or a 90's Chevy has personality. So... perhaps not a 69 Boss Nine... but something? Haha. I've been told that despite the strict QC, you can take a handful of Bugei swords.... same model, same size... and they all have a different feel. Some artists (not necessarily sword smiths) would argue that anything made by hand, by a professional, or artist, can have a soul. Of course... the nihonto... is what they all aspire to... Some of you guys that have had in your hands hundreds of real, and nice nihonto must have a certain few that come to mind... ones with a definite feel... so to speak. I'll disagree on the last part though. While i understand that the Japanese took this to a whole new level (as they do with everything), I'm sure other cultures have had smiths forge swords with certain characteristics, or purposes in mind. It was a far more romantic and mystical age, way back when these were high technology weapons.

Oh its pretty narrow by now. It seems strangely an unpopular opinion here, of all places, but i'll never waver from the 'a sword is still a sword' mindset. Even if i dont actually use it, i should be able to, and without a shred of reservation. Though i'll still remain open to them, i think i've more or less taken the real antiques off the table. Initially, my hesitation towards gendaito and shinsakuto stemmed more from the lack of smith ratings than anything else. Now i see people still seem to know them, and where they stand, and i see even some sellers (aoi) will make up their own sort of ratings (if i read that correctly in another thread). I'll take each piece as it comes to me, and do my research from there. The main issue i have is that when i initially budgeted for this endeavor, i was still in the Bugei/top-shelf Chinese forged sword mindset, or maybe a modern (non Japanese smith - Przemek, Raw, etc.) custom. I never really even entertained the idea of nihonto... as last i checked (probably about 15 years ago), they started at 10K. So... still not quite within reach for me... but not $6000 away either...

I agree, absolutely... 100%. I even got into an argument with Bugei several years ago about this, asking if i could have the pick of the new shipment... and they said 'they're all the same'. A sword... even a cheaper Chinese smithed (i did say smithed at least) blade to a lesser extent... has a soul. They're NOT all the same. Thing is... how do you do this when everything is bought online? Can an expert look at the pictures, calculate the measurements and guess accurately at what a sword will FEEL like in the hand?

Heh... definitely not my style... and yeah, a bit spendy yet, but the site looks neat. I'll give that a look. Thanks. Yeah... and i think its just a case of the universe sending me CLEAR signals... that its not meant to be. Not right now anyways. The deal i just alluded to fell through... yet another flake. I got so attached to the idea of something cheap and decent that i even called up Bugei... and they dont even stock swords anymore. If i order now... i can have something in my hands by FALL. I give up.

Actually, something came up just yesterday... someone nearby (well, nearby enough) selling a pretty much brand new, still in box Bugei Old Pine. Thats the one i like, and its one of their cheaper swords, so its not going to cost me a lot. That leaves more money for something authentic down the line. The deal hasn't gone through yet, but i'm hopeful. By the sound of things i really should wait until i have at least 3-5K Usd before i start looking for nihonto. I've also decided i'd like one in shirasaya and GOOD polish, so i can assure its mounted properly, and well... to my tastes. Just like blades, there are a lot of killer tsuba/fuchi-kashira/menuki one could put together for a cool, themed piece. That also lets me buy in stages, again, ending up with a better overall product. In the meantime... i can get to know who the good dealers are and learn more about the smiths themselves.

Am i the only person that would think to contact the seller and request more/better pictures? I've done this with brand new items of little worth (clothing, car parts, etc). I'd imagine the seller would be more than happy to oblige, and if not? Then thats a red flag that can be seen from space. Either way, you win.

Oh... its been said, many times. Quite honestly, i dont have a lot of time to read. My reading list (for my MANY pursuits) is very long. If there were similar online resources, i'd be happy to learn of them. Heh... that thing looks like a club. When my work here settles down, likely in the fall, there is a highly recommended school an hour away from me that i'm going to check out. I'm curious to know what opinions the members, or even sensei there would have on this stuff.

Well i tell ya... my mind sure is getting a workout...