KarlPeterSmith

SOME... 'Shodai Tadahiro' swords - seem to have been signed by up to three generations of the Umetada family and also by the young student Yukihiro ( who at the young age of 13 started at the same age as his grandfather Shodai Tadayoshi) Up until now... as I understand 1642 (year of the famine in Japan) was the understood age for the first sword made by Yukihiro. I only recall this as it married up with the famine. Markus Sesko may have mentioned an earlier find. ...this has come to light from growing signature evidence from his schoolmaster father Yoshinobu and known evidence of Masahiro being solely a sword maker elsewhere (further shown by his own hand in his own writing style based elsewhere. 2 horizontal lines in Fujiwara) whereas the Umetada family used 3 in their Shige-YOSHI...which was a hint/clue as-if to say look-look we did it. and a 'said' posthumously-signed Umetada Myoju sword (signed by his son Shigeyoshi and grandson Hikoemon) was a great reference to the ICHI present on all future Yukihiro swords. I even think that Hikoemon was filed off one Yukihiro leaving merely the ICHI above the freshly blanked area. I guess to increase the price by making it appear more of a Tadayoshi school blade than an Umetada school blade. Swings-and-roundabouts. I put together this image...the years and months around 1632 to let you decide. Note: The Umetada sword is dated when Myoju was still alive but the source says it was posthumously signed...so logic dictates the signatures were made by members still living. Just thought this was interesting.

Hi Charles Heesh, I'm on a special journey to spot exactly who made every sword attributed to the Tadayoshi school... especially those signed with the two characters for Hizen, Luckily your sword is signed and made PERFECTLY. Beyond question. And here's your evidence. Party on. I hope you bought it. Put it in for SHINSA. I could also possibly tell you the exact year it was made from the placement of the mekugi-ana If you look beneath your HABAKI you will see a tarnished area where the original mekugi-ana hole has been filled in. I think I see it partially on your picture. Check and let me know.

I'm not starting a NEW thread regarding this past wakizashi blade and my sincere and honest apologies for offending others in the past. I again apologise for plonking this data here... as data is data... and new knowledge is knowledge to be discovered. EXPANDING on my HIZEN-CODE I have taken on the chiselled characters for 'YOSHI' and 'LUCKY'. Your Tadayoshi... and who made it? Well here's my updated penny's worth for 2018. Ohhh and errr... I've discovered that YOSHINAGA and Yoshifusa's (formerly Tadafusa's) partnership in SAGA alongside MASAHIRO up until 1638 is very interesting. Throw in some Yoshisada (Hirosada's elder brother) and Yukihiro teaching 2nd Gen Tadakuni and 2nd Gen Masahiro and the mention of wandering samurai/swordmaker KUNISUKE would have me sound just crazy... but hey that's the rocks I lift.

Hey harvg, You were close above in #4 with your examples by Masahiro... and Hirosada. as the sword in question to me looks to be by signed by YOSHISADA who is HIROSADA's elder brother... and both are sons of KANEHIRO. YOSHISADA's son ISE YOSHIHIRO opened his own school in 1652 and was pupil of Tadayoshi and did work for Nidai Tadahiro. Best Regards Karl - Hizen Code.

Thanks again. I've put this together... showing the 1930's 10 YEN note (which shows both the Japanese character for 10 and the Chinese original character for 10 on the same note. With two sword examples that use different numbers of kanji strokes.

Thank you for your time. Is there a source I can reference that version of the number 10 you mention? I have 'The Arts of the Japanese Sword' - B.W.Robinson but would have thought p.89 on Numerals/Stems/Signs would include it.

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could identify the 3rd character down below 1624 on this 1st Gen Masahiro (See attachment) I have seen this on a couple of swords that seem to be signed by the actually maker of the blade... so I was wondering about the use of this CHARACTER... When the Japanese talk of 'time and hours' they actually write different kanji when compared to writing about say 'Counting people'... ...it would have been easier to write 1624+1 ...as seen on most swords (they were probably not getting paid by the character on this one) but here... is there added meaning??? Made on this date by one(1) person??? Just thought I'd share this thought. Any answers on this are appreciated. [i may be way off the mark but this is what I'm seeing.]

I previously suggested that the sword here was similar to that of a 1613 Tadayoshi... and it kinda is... but a character in the signature was one I had seen before when identifying what I called 'The Dream Team' (from Echizen) ...led by Soboro Sukehiro and his son Tsuda Sukehiro (+ Horimono master Nagasaka Yuhoken who also trained at the Umetada school) and student Sukenao. I will GUESS it was a commission. All info/deduction is in the attached picture. I still think that what is concidered as the 2nd best sword making team ever (just an opinion) produced the SHARPEST SWORDS that we now attribute to SHODAI TADAYOSHI. ................................................................................................................................................................................................... On another note: ............ I'll speculate. A 1628 sword signed Tadayoshi... seems to have been signed by either a child's hand (which would be Yukihiro or the Nidai Tadahiro using Tadayoshi as a name... that is if Masanaga>Tadayoshi(for 1 year) then Masahiro didn't use it for longer)... or the very ill Shodai himself who decided to continue using Tadayoshi while his progeny produced/commissioned Musashi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro's. I just at present can't see any 1624-1632 Musashi Tadahiro swords by the Shodai's hands.

Hizen no kuni Tadafusa (Just thought you'd maybe like to look and decide for yourselves.) TADAFUSA changed his name to YOSHIFUSA and has swords by himself recorded 1624-1644 Hizen Saga ju Fujiwara Yoshifusa Hizen no kuni ju Minamoto Yoshifusa Student of Shodai Tadayoshi. There is a sword signed by both YOSHIFUSA and YOSHINAGA (who died young 1638) [who was Munenaga’s son and also a horimono carver himself] It appears that the 1630-1632 swords (which were later cutting tested) may show the hand of YOSHIFUSA. Marks from the strikes appear to have been made with the same force and direction into the metal as to leave the same shapes and ripples ( outside of the characters). I just brought YOSHIFUSA into the spotlight as he is one name little talked about yet his hand is like the ‘Elves who appear in the night and make little cotton booties’. More is apparent when viewing the attached sword comparisons.

I'm sorry you can't see it Brian but it is the same mei.... the same name... I have placed the signatures side by side. How can you not see this? There is a picture. The one in this thread is on the far left of the image in #12 and multiple versions from tsubas are on the right to??? Which match the signature in thread #1. Look again. You are the admin. A Tsuba signature and a sword signature will vary slightly in calligraphy due to space and materials being carved into it... tsubas sometimes have more finesse and flair. You worry about the date of the original thread...when really the correct identification of the signature should be the main goal of any sword made 400+ years ago. it's what they do in Japan. Yes the 2 Shigeyoshi signatures in the books being referred to (by experts on here) DO NOT MATCH - but more names and 'other generations' of Umetada Shigeyoshi actually exist... of which the signature in POST #1 is one. And it is correct. The evidence I show in post #12 is correct. This signature in this thread is also on "100 Years of the Tadayoshi School" being sold by Saatchi Art. [Research done] I'm sorry you can't see it. And... Happy Christmas.

...in the grand search for the correct identification of Japan's treasures... here is some information on the given sword in this thread... and do not file the name off. Backstory: My journey to identify a Tadayoshi School titled sword... a "Musashi Daijo Fujiwara"... a title which could belong to 1624 Shodai Tadayoshi or 1660 2nd Gen Masahiro... (as 1st Gen Masahiro/Masanaga may have made it) had me study the Umetada Master signatures... and when I saw this thread... your signature was one I had seen MANY TIMES. I know the experts like 3 examples before they agree to say YES on this signature (see attachment) ...but I have dozens on this signature... and you can see for yourself... The mekugi-ana are similar to the FAMOUS Atakagiri in the Fukuoka Museum... and I've included a single Mekugi-ana example from roughly 1624... as it matches the Umetada influenced "Musashi Daijo" I'm looking at (my opinion only) ...ENJOY x My attachment is totally relevant to the sword in this thread. It's a good one.

It fits in after 1610... Omi Tadayoshi wasn't born in 1610. Can someone check that for me? Only joking x Mekugi-ana placement is perfect for the 1610+ period. And it is signed like a Tachi ... and this looks like a shortened one. As for the writing... The steep HIZEN angle is in the ball park for 2nd Gen Munetsugu and also some later Kunihiro swords (who also went a bit wild with his transition in writing styles BUT fits between 2 Kunihiros which seem to have been signed by his master 1st Gen Tadayoshi ) ...none of which look like any of the later Omi's. The inconsistent sloppiness would be be-fitting of someone either young or illiterate... or both. I've seen your pic... and adjusted it to see if it now makes more sense...(with similar signature characteristics [due to date] now applied). At the end of the day... use common sense. If it's cheap...check it out ... BUY IT... have a good look... then sell it for more.

The signature resembles the writing style on a sword where 2nd Gen MASAHIRO was teaching HIS own SON Masanaga. 2nd Gen Masahiro's rise to fame is closely linked to the Mutsu's (3rd Gen Tadayoshi's) rise (both received titles in 1660 and 1661) SELL IT TO ME. Anyone who thinks they have a gimei Tadayoshi. I'm buying (I'll be paying as if it's a fake). I've compiled 100 years of Tadayoshi swords in sequence and have found none of the swords to be gimei at all. Broad statement yes. If you THINK it's gimei then sell me a bargain. I'll take them all. If you still think it's fake PAY ME to take it off your hands. I'll pay what you paid for it x

[Logic derived from Post#24 ..."Because Darcy has not seen it - it does not exist?"] You have just seen one. Your personal issue resolved. Even if it is unique... you just saw one. And you deny seeing it?? "Heavenly Dogs can see such things" - TENGU ref... which will satisfy your friend's lust for mythological beasts with wisdom. Graphologists would label the sword Myoshin/Shigeyoshi by the niji-mei. Think of the contemporary scenario (the actual day it was signed)....If you are the only UMETADA making swords and other family members are doing fittings. It's simpler to put UMETADA. It's a Hormono'd TANTO. Yup I'm gonna use GOLD too so the number of characters COSTS (a commision cost is per character + that horimono was pricey) I've already signed it (that's his thought) that's my horimono with no equal in the school. I have no equal. I'm me. The boss. I could add one of my MANY names<<< he had many. No need for confusion here. Simply UMETADA will suffice. The client requested it as such. NOTE: HORIKAWA KUNIHIRO Up until 1615 was also uses their services... (see attachment) Go see "Atakigiri" in the Fukuoka Museum. You may just have to get out and see more blades. Expand your knowledge. DARCY...You do love "quotes" and semantics and I agree that you do have a vast knowledge (compliment<<). BUT please talk about the blade in question as you've talked a lot about what 'I have actually said' (flattering) and totally ignored identifying the blade in this blog. You have the larger entourage on here. Next to him...Umetada Jusai is polishing a Masamune (for real) and doing gold inlay (on the Masamune) for the Hon-ami family. How freaky can this scenario get? But it's real. Oh that reminds me... that poilished Masamune... and how it was signed has similarities too... but i digress. ONE OTHER THING... you didn't spot that is ALSO looks like a disguised 'cursed' MURAMASA... but maybe like you say... you haven't seen one. So there's a gazillion quotes to keep you busy. I'll be out looking at real swords (I call it research) while you talk about what I'm talking about.

Here's more on why they should have papered this TANTO more than simply UMETADA ... It takes me a morning with a cup of tea and breakfast to see it's NISHIJIN (two-same-sized Mekugi-ana) a character's amount of spacing apart and almost in line (when compared to larger and smaller holes much farther apart) and... MASTER MYOJU's son signing the TANTO... see 1620+ reason for this deduction in attachment. and ...the mekugi-ana are in the same ball-park as 'Atakagiri' (1604) in the Fukuoka Museum... but straighter... like Myoshin's work... which makes me think Myoshin for 'Atakagiri' (wow controversial eh) ...but this Tanto it's not a DAMBIRA (wide blade)....just a slim tanto.... so Myoshin is still a safe bet. They'd not be unsafe by saying it's him - as it has all the hallmarks of his work. Hell - he's even signed it x [My comments are based soley on the work presented in this blog compared with 'dated work(s)' from the Umetada School]

If they THINK it is a certain 'someone' they should attribute it to that certain someone. If one files off the horimono and signature on this TANTO... would they say that it was even an UMETADA blade at all??? (or more likely label it Umetada Gimei and not touch it at all) So in a sense judging swords by the sheer weight-of-the-blade alone (it's characteristics) is out there in the Twilight Zone and pure guesswork by all judging panels <<<But let me add to this... Of course they'll compare like-with-like... and there are enough signed examples from the UMETADA school to make a leap of faith and to be more specific as to who they think this 'work' resembles. It's even signed! So... without the horimono and without the 'Umetada' zogan (which is how most swords are judged)... they would not be making a 'safe call' by saying Umetada at all? Luckily I'm currently into the Umetada School - and how it's 'works' splice into the Tadayoshi school... and Myoju's son [i.e. Myoshin/Shigeyoshi/Ietaka/kitchen sink] (until proven incorrect) fashioned this Tanto.

Hi Ed... I'm the controversial one... so again I'll just stick to the visual facts. Firstly... Nice TANTO! < I say this because size is everything when someone signs a blade... and I have noted the UMETADA drilling mekugi-ana & signing consistently according to the size of the space provided... i.e. DAMBIRA gives one more room etc Yours is signed down the middle (which shouts out before 1615 which is Horikawa Kunihiro style) ... my opinion. Secondly.... Gold zogan. Cool... which is a 'shout-out' for UMETADA JUSAI working for the Hon'ami family. ...but even though i say this... I'll shout out... UMETADA SHIGEYOSHI (Myoju's son) due to comparisons made (SEE ATTACHMENT) ... this SHIGEYOSHI seems to have signed at least one sword MUSASHI DAIJO FUJIAWARA for Tadayoshi it seems ( I speculate on this... but the evidence seems to state that this is true.) I'm surprised your PAPER wasn't more specific as UMETADA is a very generic classification (covers everyone) and covers half a millennia of possibilities. I could give you more info.

Bold statement: Here it comes> This MUNENAGA is more famous for his HORIMONO carving on 1st Gen Tadayoshi blades. This surely would be one of his latest blades(if not his LAST)...as you know he was famous for HORIMONO carving on 1st gen Tadayoshi's blades... and as you can see in the evidence provided (a detail from the Tadayoshi School timeline) he returned to do some mekugi-ana hole drilling (appearing on 3rd Gen Mutsu Tadayoshi and his father 2nd Gen Omi Tadhiro blades) specific for only a 2 year period...maybe not even that long. Venerable... old... pro... a genius. Munenaga outlived his son Yoshinaga who died in 1638 (ref Marcus Sesko...letter by Munenaga) At this period Yukihiro was teaching 2nd Gen Masahiro (a blade shows this - one that Sotheby's said was 1st Gen Mas and 1st Gen Yuki - but it aint brothers it's an Uncle and Nephew sword) ...and 1st Gen Tadakuni was helping the 2nd Gen Masahiro make blades for the Omi with the Mutsu. That's the period. 1661 is only 1-2 years out so it was labelled correctly on Ebay. I'd just added your blade to the timeline (an overview of the whole century in the Tadayoshi School) and was surprised to see it as a current thread on here. "Yes the signature looks slightly different as it looks like the MUTSU wrote it for him. *MUNENAGA writes down the middle of the blade (so Mekugi-ana would be within the characters)

I may be able to kill 2 birds with one stone here... that crazy looking odd 'kuni' in the Tadayoshi blade matches one signed by both Tadayoshi and Munenaga around 1613-14 (Date derived by signature comparison - from listing every Tadayoshi School sword in the land in chronological order - not from any other ref.) and... I was wanting to contact Paul Bowman after reading about his Niji Mei Shodai/Sandai dilemma from way-way back but this blade in this blog is very current and the data I present here is relevant to the Tadayoshi seen in this thread. I hope this clears up a previously vague area presented in a few books I've seen. You'll also see this pattern of making every-type of blade repeat itself later when the Shodai was teaching the Omi/Nidai around 1631. Stop hating me for presenting the facts as the data shows.

Ooooo... I found one! A similar lower character on a Hizen Kanehiro... it is to do with forging methods. Forged in a certain way or technique. And that's Kanehiro as-in the line that fathered Hirosada. Thank you to Jaques D... for the 'shin' I do think the top character (when compared to this one) swings towards Inoue which would make this "Inoue Forged this"... which I can tell you is off a fully signed Tadahiro blade with theses two characters at the lower end... as if he was just upfront that he made it... or 'forged it'... -- it's just semantics.

Thanks for rallying the troops Brian. And thanks to CSM101 for the "Sada" Kanji as in "Kuni-Sada". And the bottom character is ??? :-)

To aid my own research... can anyone tell me what the lower character in this picture is please? I'm wondering if it is a variant of Inoue Shinkai's second name? "light above the well that doesn't reach the bottom" kinda stuff... Is it the 1st kanji (another one) he used for Shinkai in the early days? If it means 'made' or 'forged by' as in "Inoue forged this" then WOOHOO. Can anyone - in this community - aid me on the identification of this? Please.

If anyone wishes my perspective on any of their future purchases then please feel free to drop me a line. I do not buy or sell but I will just give an honest opinion based on the sword you are looking to buy. If you WISH to pay a small fortune "as YOU validate the weight of an opinion by how much you pay for it" then a FEE can be agreed upon. I see that a recent Tadayoshi sale - papered by the HON'AMI family back in the 1940's shows a Yoshinobu, but they are happy with $11,000 piece of paper. As for the Golden Girls fan... my advice is "Don't eat yellow snow." :-)

... I will always show you PRIMARY evidence... and let you see it as it is... I class oshigata as secondary evidence... but will always try and let you see the PRIMARY as-is. Here is some more PRIMARY evidence... ...of THE DREAM TEAM... and some more HIZEN TADAYOSHI's with Munenaga-like horimono by the very talented NAGASAKA YUHOKEN... with the aid of Tsuda Sukehiro & Tsuda Sukenao examples that show you as it is. ...THE DREAM TEAM. (attachment/evidence provided)

Blade is signed 'Hishu ju Tadayoshi kore tadayoshi Umetada Myoju Deshi'. This is a 'Hishu' (or Hizen) Tadayoshi but I see (and read) Sess'hu (or Settsu)... as in... it's the work of Soboro Sukehiro. Mekugi-ana placement was the give away. This is a fantastic supreme work. GREAT sword. GREAT everything... Details in attached pic. How do you categorise this?