Alex A

Not to worry Don, Shingane is very common, especially in older blades.

Agree Jean, hence why i expressed my interest with the seller, wouldn't usually go for mumei nowadays but see it as a fair deal. The shape is interesting , never owned one like this and like Seki. There is difficulties here though, for both seller and buyer. The seller is new to this site so that makes selling difficult as folk are cautious about sending hard earned money to folk they don't know. If all was well, would have suggested a middle man, someone well known. Even if the seller sold with someone like Ray on commission im pretty sure he would have received his asking price after the sale. Im still waiting for better images. The sword is advertised here but im no member so cant view. https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/next/69278

Peter, as mentioned, very tough without having the full original sword with nakago, as that gives clues to the school. We need really good clear shots of hamon and hada to even come up with maybes Very difficult

Wow, big bear! Maybe this is why the fur not carved all over, may have had other stuff to move on to!

Hello, Its a tough one, probably the end of a katana or wak, judging by the nakago You dont see Shinogi zukuri shaped tanto often. If i was to buy one it would have to be signed and nakago well finished, that way you know its a legit tanto An example https://sword-auction.com/en/product/14059/as21710-短刀：横山伊勢守祐平/

Don, Your sword is interesting, the fact that it is one of those real oddballs that you come across occasionally. You could spend all day on this looking through books and not come up with anything substantial. You should send it to Shinsa in the US and at least that way you will have opinions of experts who see it in hand. That is if you really want to know about who made it (opinion) At first glance from your original images i immediately thought Bizen and i kind of still lean that way but sit on the fence so to speak. From a distance it just looked Bizen, the hamon, sugata and nakago. The nakago of which i still thing is machi-okuri. File marks are indistinct which does not help, in some images there appears to be remnant yasurime which match that of Bizen but i cant call it from images. As Kirill pointed out, the sugata is that of an early blade but the work don't match. The hada appears dense (in some images) and the hamon seems to have little activity for Sue-Bizen. From then on i started thinking something like Takada as they were known to have blades resemble Bizen but also have a dense hada. Its not that straight forward though as there are parts of this sword that dont point to Takada. The Nakago does, but they were known for stout blades where as yours seems slender, like an old tachi. Other differences also. The nakago ana are obviously drilled. Dont normally look too much into this but no way of getting away from it. Kind of got to thinking maybe some kind of special order blade whereas a Samurai wants a particular request. When blades don't quite fit this can be an explanation. You do see oddball swords with papers sometimes that do make you wonder. Swords with odd sugata that dont match the age etc. From then on looked at Shin Shinto Gassan which i know nothing about. From a brief read i noticed that some did make swords in the style of old tachi and worked in various ways regarding hamon and hada, though your sword appears much older without distinct yasurime etc etc etc. Not really got anywhere but just some thoughts. Cheers

Christian, you could very well put a longer Katana tsuka on a wakizashi short nakago Whether or not a samurai would want to depend on it in battle, i very much doubt. Without altering the nakago. There has to be a balance with nakago length/tsuka You only need to look at koshirae made for waks that are machi-okuri. Not talking about the sword in this thread, just making a suggestion. Ps, actually, looking at the nakago above. First thought, appears shortish for a blade of that length.

As mentioned already. Good to meet other collectors and if for any reason one of them mentions they may be selling something then i certainly wont be offended. With all the hassles of buying online and importing, makes perfect sense. Grow up Jimmy, you sound like one of those kids that go home with the ball when things are not going their way

You do remind me of a point that i often think about and there is very little info, how much influence someone had, when ordering a sword/swords with specific requirements. I know some sword schools favoured certain traits in their swords. Anyways, as we move away from Muromachi to Momoyama more peaceful times, the single handed Uchigatana gets left behind.

Not too sure, judging by the Uchiko powder ball in his other hand

Can only give tips as to what to look for, dont want get involved in any online kantei disputes. You have nakago-jiri You can see file marks, http://meiboku.info/guide/form/yasurime/index.htm Also, what appears to be a drilled ana. Not a lot to go off, but every little helps.

Just out of curiosity, had a spare hour this morn looking for points of view with regards specifically WHY blades were shortened in this manner. Lots of info on how it was done with diagrams and a write ups but little as to why. Looking for points of view. The logical reason is simply so a longer tsuka could be fitted to a sword to enable TWO hands on the blade. agree ? Bare in mind that just because a blade has TWO ana, this does not automatically make the blade Machi-okuri.!, there are other reasons why you may see two ana. Some info on the particular swords where machi-okuri was common. KATATE UCHI (single hand swords) "Late Muromachi Period By the late Muromachi period, fighting methods had changed from cavalry to mass infantry style warfare. Shorter blades, known as uchigatana, with a cutting edge of around 63.6 cm in length that were intended for one-handed use became popular. As opposed to tachi that were worn suspended from the belt, uchigatana were worn thrust through the sash with the cutting edge uppermost. Following the Onin war, conflicts broke out in many places prompting the mass-production of blades (inferior in quality to regular Japanese blades). However, specially ordered blades of excellent quality (chumon-uchi) were also produced at this time. The provinces of Bizen (Okayama prefecture) and Mino (Gifu prefecture) became major places of production. Many blades produced in this period have with strong saki-zori, with either a chu-kissaki or an extended chu-kissaki." Now some info from Usagiya, with an image showing Machi Okuri. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html "Machi-okuri (= Machi moved) The tang keeps original, but the machi's are moved upward. It is done to shorten the blade length a little. So the TANG LENGTH IS EXTENDED. Such a small shortening is not called Suriage. It is just a "Machi-okuri". The reverse surface of the tang is ground with file sometimes to get a proper taper of thickness." Now an example of a blade of a "katate uchi blade". Bizen Eisho. This example shows a typical blade of that era which is quite long at at 59cm but the nakago has been altered to allow for a longer grip. The overall length/reach of the sword has not changed, just sacrificed some blade length (an important key point). https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-katsumitsu-saku/ Look forward to reading any thoughts on this subject.

Dave, from day 1 of "Jimmy" appearing . pretty sure we have all seen him before here., rinse wash repeat.

Again, no sales, we were not allowed to take our own items Jimmy, for some reason or another, you coming across as being somewhat upset about something. So your in the UK, This is not the best place to make your point, write to the Token society. Also, some very educational ZOOM meetings, ever tried selling something at a ZOOM meeting. Stands up/Butts in "anyone want to buy this?"

Swords are out there in the UK, its if you can be bothered looking, as so much already "in polish" online overseas. When visiting arms fairs there is always a Japanese sword that catches the eye. Say to the dealer "where did you get that from?", they always reply "someone walked in with it earlier". Saw an advert on gunstar "Japanese swords wanted" Talking about arms fairs, you do come across swords. Last time i went there was a Koto katana in gunto fittings, in old polish, the guy wanted £1200. Year before that, another Koto katana, really dark steel (Northern something), gunto fittings, £900 Few years ago, a wakizashi in gunto fittings, £600. Chunky blade and was tempted. Fresh polish but polish could have been better as it was a commercial job. Turned out to be Yokoyama (as i found out later). Always see waks in koshirae, sometimes really nice koshirae. Seen those at £650, Shinshinto tanto in last fittings, always. A few years ago there was a sword with really nice fittings . Omori wave type Fuchi/Kashira A few years before that a Koto Katana, signed Bizen. That was nice as it had really old koshirae in sleepy condition, matching Nanako fittings. £800 A super long Shinshinto katana, also with its last really nice koshirae. Very long tsuka, the kashira was hanging on for dear life, but still great to see. £1800 All these stick in the mind, as knew they were good deals. As always, the really interesting items turn up when you are looking for something else.

As just one of a bunch that went to the Leeds Meeting. No sales, Talks by Paul, Michael and Ian B, also shown around the Japanese arms and armour by Ian B (who's knowledge on the subject knows no bounds) Table of 20 swords to hold and view. Brilliant day, didn't buy anything but a cup of tea.

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Wont bore anyone much more on this subject, something i needed to look into as its niggled for a while. Had some time today so been looking through Kantei books, actually quite interesting looking at different oshigata with regards the hamon at hamachi. Trying to get my head around it for once and looking for any points of view from others Final thoughts, don't automatically assume a blade has been shortened when you see the hamon run into the nakago, sometimes it can run surprisingly far. You see it in Uda. You see it in Bizen, also in the late Edo with regards Yokoyama school, especially when there is Suguha Yakidashi. (varies) Added some images. 1) Bizen Sukesada (Tensho) 2) Ishido Koretsugu 3) Ishido Korekazu (wild finish there, reminds me of the Yokoyama above) 4) Echizen Yasatsugu (quite popular on his blades, the ones i looked at) 5) Echigo Kunitomo Thanks to those that chipped in on what is a lacklustre subject, haha

We see many perfectly good longer swords cut down to wakizashi, owned one myself and often wondered about it. Not got a time machine but one can justifiably speculate that it received damage at the nakago end. Think i can recall the sword swingers on here stating the area around the hamachi/habaki takes a great amount of pressure on a blow against an object, this comes from flex on the blade meeting the force pushing down on the held tsuka/nakago. My assumption is that it not uncommon for swords to receive hagire at that point.

Actually have found it. It was part of a private discussion i had with Darcy (god bless him) , had to go way back. He said you may see it as some smiths wanted to avoid a place on the nakago where a brake can begin, a fulcrum point. He mentioned smiths even being wary where they chisel mei, heard that one elsewhere too. Also, Hi running the full length of the blade and nakago, possibly meant to prevent that too.

Cant remember where i read about blade strength in that area with regards hamon running into the nakago. Read somewhere, that the reason you see hamon running into the nakago is to prevent a weakness where swords may break. Certain smiths/schools where you may find it. Something to do with the hard edge on impact, flex, and where the hamon joins the nakago. They knew the weak spots, they only had to look at broken swords after a battle. Looked, cant find it, hopefully someone might remember.

Hi Colin, hamachi is there before quenching, pic from a vid

Think with this smith the hamon strays into the nakago on some blades, sometimes less and sometimes more. This one dont stray far but whoever drew the oshigata picked up on it

Glad someone's chimes in, thought this would have been an interesting subject. Saying that though, i cant think of any subject that has caused more disagreements in the entire time I've been here. Thought lets gets to the bottom of it, or try. As said, didn't spend a great deal of time, focused on looking for similar examples of nakago and where the hamon ends., not so much the blade. Actually. i thought they were 2 good examples of very similar nakago Nakago-jiri the same, unaltered One mekugi-ana (the distance from the ana to the machi looks about right for an ubu blade) Both have carved Mon in the same place., as in they meet the shiny part of the blade where the habaki sits. Let me know your thoughts Jacques, maybe i missed something. if you think this is a bad example i can search for more when i have time.

Dear Jacques You have a point on that one. I certainly wont try and assist anyone like this again Not worth the hassle or the unnecessary insults that go with it Actually, people that come here for info get it FREE, so they shouldbe greatful of anything. Over and out.