Alex A

Hi Jacques, when you say Shinto, are you meaning Shinto as in very early Shinto ? Little confused about how you say it is Ubu. I see the hamon run into the nakago and the end of the nakago chopped off. Are you saying it is Ubu and made to look suriage ?, as in Shinshinto maybe? The mention of dark steel got me thinking. I have a sword here, 2 character mei. Difficult to pin down to anyone particular in a specific line of Sue Seki smiths, even further on down the line into early Shinto, as the work crosses over and looks similar. Im not saying its Kanemoto or anything, as i dont know, just that the blade reminds me of Sue-Seki, though the hamon for some reason reminds me of later swords.

Kirill, i know you like the old swords, with more character. Also, as i have been saying, one size dont fit all.

To be fair, the sword at the top of this page doesn't exactly blast off at gunome. Unless you know the swords then something might just stand out as unusual. http://www.sho-shin.com/kanemoto.html

Nakago looks ok for that era too, think they call it Keicho-suriage. Dont know enough about the yakidashi on Kanemoto blades, perhaps just one of those things that crop up occasionally? Read about Mino yakidashi but this dont look to fit. You do find Yakidashi on Mino blades , an example

Hello again, actually, hope i didnt sound too confident ruling out Shinshinto! Sometimes you read a bit about whats been said, look and assume. It dont look like a Shinshinto blade, but can we see a clear image of the nakago please, out of curiosity. No point doing it unless you put the time in.

The other thing is PRESSURE, Jacques mentioned it, The guy in the vid seals the tube. Also says its an all day process Need an honours in metallurgy to work out what is what Heading out now, will catch up later, cheers.

Hi Mark, cheers Im just wondering whether that is relevant here?, and i say that because of TIME. Just been watching another video about what Jacques said and this guy states that carbon travels at approx 0.005" or in our terms 0.127mm per HOUR If its the case, would it make much difference? Ps Christian, i get the point of your post now, cheers 2.15 in this vid

Hi Dave, read that its mainly Koto or Shinshinto, this dont look to be Shinshinto No doubt if you look for swords during the Shinto period you might find them Only flew over this, to be honest i could not tell whether that was Yakidashi or not as there are parts up the blade where the the gunome peaks settle, but maybe your right. Always difficult from images, especially when its small section pictures.

Nice sword! Hamon pattern continues into the boshi = Koto You mention dark steel, looks dark to me too, blackish? = Sue Seki Obvious Masame in the Shinogi-Ji = Sue Seki. Nailing it down to one smith and exact time is a very difficult task, this is the fun that comes with Mumei swords Just enjoy the blade. Ps, not looked into what the papers state, but yeh, i would want to find similar swords too.

Hi Christian, but it states this about carburizing. "This diffusion will work only if the steel has low carbon content, because diffusion works on the differential of concentration principle"

Folk disagree then that's fair enough, im happy just to pick up on a things that i wouldn't normally look into and gain a bit more understanding of the full picture. Cheers.

Actually, ive said sorry a few times but in reality if one cant get their head around this then this then there is no hope to understand Japanese swords, If your serious about Japanese swords and find this boring then i would go back and re-read what has been talked about. Again, this is fundamental to the hobby and there is little chance of remotely understanding any sword construction , let alone what makes Kamakura swords interesting. Reading what Mark, Jean and Jacques have said has been very interesting . As said, this is not what i have neen learning about, been mainly Kantei type stuff. So excuse my basic thoughts with regards this particular part of the hobby, im no blacksmith, just a guy trying to get his head around it The interesting part for me, the plasticine analogy, struck a nerve and i will tell you why. Very similar, years ago working as a printer i mixed more different coloured inks then i care to remember to create other colours, reds and yellows to create orange and so on. How is this relevant, you may ask. Well, when i watch the guy in the vid fold the steel it takes me back to that time stood folding 2 blocks of ink together. I can tell you this for sure, 12 folds isn't enough to turn 2 colours into 1 colour. I would be there ages folding many times to see the final 1 colour and even then you would find the odd streak. When i see a smith in a video talking about steels of different carbon content being stacked, heated, hammered and folded, it takes me back. I watch him hammer and fold. I don't see steel, i see colours being mixed. Its been stated that steels of different carbon go in to the block, sometimes close and sometimes not so close. When i watch a smith in the video fold the steel, lets say 2 steels of varying carbon. I imagine 2 different colours., Even if those 2 steels are close in carbon content then even after 12 folds im still assuming a difference within that block. We have HADA! The only way to produce a block of pure equal carbon steel would be to really refine. Im talking melt it down as in at steelworks molten metal, no ? Muji hada is the result of much folding/refining, O-itame not so much Its been said varying carbon levels makes the hada more distinct by a few sources. Lets remember that folding steel is not always perfect, also. Look at how many delamination's we see in blades, impurities and so on, flaws etc As for this carbon migration, i dont know anything about it but wonder how much of an effect there might be ?. An image of a reasonably tight hada below, to look at, is that just the result of heat, hammer and folding and not material differences, i find it hard to believe. As mentioned, there is a molecular level, i aint going there haha. Think maybe that is the only way to settle it. Gone on a bit. Great thread, cheers.

I don't see how Hada cannot be related to carbon content when the steel made to create the Hada pattern is made from carbon steel/steels. Think maybe this deserved its own thread. Sorry, again.

Going around in circles here Back to Kamakura

Well, if the steel gets more evenly distributed when manipulated (as in plasticine analogy) how does that not distribute the carbon within the steel too?

Just as an example. If you took two swords and did a carbon analysis on a dozen or so points on each blade and compared 1) Mass produced koto itame 2) Shinshinto refined Muji On average, id bet my home 2 would show to have more consistent carbon Lots of swords and variations

Hi Jean It states in the video the wafers are of differing carbon content. Also, if carbon is always so evenly distributed, then why (as Jacques quoted the craft of the Japanese sword) does it state in that book ”The VARYING carbon content also produces etc etc” Using the plasticine analogy , for perfect distribution i would expect the 2 colours to merge into 1 colour, as in extremely tight refined hada)

In this video and out of curiosity. States "stacks differing wafers of varying carbon content". Now i suppose they could be close carbon content or miles apart. Are you guys saying (in simple terms) that the carbon content after hammering and folding will be TOTALLY EVEN throughout the block ? 19.46 in this video. Also, worth mentioning again that you will see some smiths do things differently, obviously a different hada is the result. What im getting at, and the plasticine clay is a good analogy. Folk talk about “ The Japanese sword” like there was only ever one lol. I wonder if the carbon content in a O-itame is as evenly distributed as that in a super fine Muji?

Well done Jan. How would you describe the crystal formations?, Nioi, with a touch of Nie maybe ? Hamon looks to go quite near to the ridge line, perhaps a clue. Also, my eyes not great with images but do you see any masame hada in the Shinogi-ji ?

Good write-up However, we are still left with the question on how they made superior blades

Hate to state the obvious but is sword making not too diverse to say one size fits all, with regards the way various steels are used, mixed or whatever ?, just a thought that occurred. Read a few varying tales on the internet a short while ago with regards the outer steel and now feel you cant put everything into handy boxes, as is the case quite often in this hobby. Be good to hear what yours and Jacques pal says about carbon and hada definition, my main interest in this offshoot Nicolas, again apologies. Not a bad side-line though as this talk is fundamental to the hobby,. Cheers.

Looks like everyones looking for evidence Just an humble hada student wondering why some folk disagree with what has been stated elsewhere and trying to get my head around why folk are saying what they are saying, without anything to back up their statements. As said, this not a speciality of mine, obviously. Just curious. PS, Mark. It states “composed of TWO KINDS of middle carbon steel” Lets not split hairs. Also, Nicolas, sorry!,

Thats what ive been thinking…evidence

I was talking about the The Samurai Handbook, sorry. Usually get this for less than a £10

Hi Thomas, yes i get all that. The issue now is folk going way off track and into space with regards hada. My last comment was just a thought, thinking if folk cant work out how differing carbon during construction effects hada (even though stated numerous times) then what hope is there in ever trying to work out the visible steel effect of Kamakura blades to that of other blades, with regards construction/materials. It should have stopped in my opinion at Rays post about the smith Shibata Ka, as NO ONE here has the knowledge to answer that question, unless your at that guys level as a SMITH. As said, i will just stick with what is written about hada, good enough for me, this is heading for an egotistical mess. sigh. Ps, Nice one Jacques & Jean speaking to someone in “the know”.