Alex A

You do remind me of a point that i often think about and there is very little info, how much influence someone had, when ordering a sword/swords with specific requirements. I know some sword schools favoured certain traits in their swords. Anyways, as we move away from Muromachi to Momoyama more peaceful times, the single handed Uchigatana gets left behind.

Not too sure, judging by the Uchiko powder ball in his other hand

Can only give tips as to what to look for, dont want get involved in any online kantei disputes. You have nakago-jiri You can see file marks, http://meiboku.info/guide/form/yasurime/index.htm Also, what appears to be a drilled ana. Not a lot to go off, but every little helps.

Just out of curiosity, had a spare hour this morn looking for points of view with regards specifically WHY blades were shortened in this manner. Lots of info on how it was done with diagrams and a write ups but little as to why. Looking for points of view. The logical reason is simply so a longer tsuka could be fitted to a sword to enable TWO hands on the blade. agree ? Bare in mind that just because a blade has TWO ana, this does not automatically make the blade Machi-okuri.!, there are other reasons why you may see two ana. Some info on the particular swords where machi-okuri was common. KATATE UCHI (single hand swords) "Late Muromachi Period By the late Muromachi period, fighting methods had changed from cavalry to mass infantry style warfare. Shorter blades, known as uchigatana, with a cutting edge of around 63.6 cm in length that were intended for one-handed use became popular. As opposed to tachi that were worn suspended from the belt, uchigatana were worn thrust through the sash with the cutting edge uppermost. Following the Onin war, conflicts broke out in many places prompting the mass-production of blades (inferior in quality to regular Japanese blades). However, specially ordered blades of excellent quality (chumon-uchi) were also produced at this time. The provinces of Bizen (Okayama prefecture) and Mino (Gifu prefecture) became major places of production. Many blades produced in this period have with strong saki-zori, with either a chu-kissaki or an extended chu-kissaki." Now some info from Usagiya, with an image showing Machi Okuri. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html "Machi-okuri (= Machi moved) The tang keeps original, but the machi's are moved upward. It is done to shorten the blade length a little. So the TANG LENGTH IS EXTENDED. Such a small shortening is not called Suriage. It is just a "Machi-okuri". The reverse surface of the tang is ground with file sometimes to get a proper taper of thickness." Now an example of a blade of a "katate uchi blade". Bizen Eisho. This example shows a typical blade of that era which is quite long at at 59cm but the nakago has been altered to allow for a longer grip. The overall length/reach of the sword has not changed, just sacrificed some blade length (an important key point). https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-katsumitsu-saku/ Look forward to reading any thoughts on this subject.

Dave, from day 1 of "Jimmy" appearing . pretty sure we have all seen him before here., rinse wash repeat.

Again, no sales, we were not allowed to take our own items Jimmy, for some reason or another, you coming across as being somewhat upset about something. So your in the UK, This is not the best place to make your point, write to the Token society. Also, some very educational ZOOM meetings, ever tried selling something at a ZOOM meeting. Stands up/Butts in "anyone want to buy this?"

Swords are out there in the UK, its if you can be bothered looking, as so much already "in polish" online overseas. When visiting arms fairs there is always a Japanese sword that catches the eye. Say to the dealer "where did you get that from?", they always reply "someone walked in with it earlier". Saw an advert on gunstar "Japanese swords wanted" Talking about arms fairs, you do come across swords. Last time i went there was a Koto katana in gunto fittings, in old polish, the guy wanted £1200. Year before that, another Koto katana, really dark steel (Northern something), gunto fittings, £900 Few years ago, a wakizashi in gunto fittings, £600. Chunky blade and was tempted. Fresh polish but polish could have been better as it was a commercial job. Turned out to be Yokoyama (as i found out later). Always see waks in koshirae, sometimes really nice koshirae. Seen those at £650, Shinshinto tanto in last fittings, always. A few years ago there was a sword with really nice fittings . Omori wave type Fuchi/Kashira A few years before that a Koto Katana, signed Bizen. That was nice as it had really old koshirae in sleepy condition, matching Nanako fittings. £800 A super long Shinshinto katana, also with its last really nice koshirae. Very long tsuka, the kashira was hanging on for dear life, but still great to see. £1800 All these stick in the mind, as knew they were good deals. As always, the really interesting items turn up when you are looking for something else.

As just one of a bunch that went to the Leeds Meeting. No sales, Talks by Paul, Michael and Ian B, also shown around the Japanese arms and armour by Ian B (who's knowledge on the subject knows no bounds) Table of 20 swords to hold and view. Brilliant day, didn't buy anything but a cup of tea.

Last 3

Wont bore anyone much more on this subject, something i needed to look into as its niggled for a while. Had some time today so been looking through Kantei books, actually quite interesting looking at different oshigata with regards the hamon at hamachi. Trying to get my head around it for once and looking for any points of view from others Final thoughts, don't automatically assume a blade has been shortened when you see the hamon run into the nakago, sometimes it can run surprisingly far. You see it in Uda. You see it in Bizen, also in the late Edo with regards Yokoyama school, especially when there is Suguha Yakidashi. (varies) Added some images. 1) Bizen Sukesada (Tensho) 2) Ishido Koretsugu 3) Ishido Korekazu (wild finish there, reminds me of the Yokoyama above) 4) Echizen Yasatsugu (quite popular on his blades, the ones i looked at) 5) Echigo Kunitomo Thanks to those that chipped in on what is a lacklustre subject, haha

We see many perfectly good longer swords cut down to wakizashi, owned one myself and often wondered about it. Not got a time machine but one can justifiably speculate that it received damage at the nakago end. Think i can recall the sword swingers on here stating the area around the hamachi/habaki takes a great amount of pressure on a blow against an object, this comes from flex on the blade meeting the force pushing down on the held tsuka/nakago. My assumption is that it not uncommon for swords to receive hagire at that point.

Actually have found it. It was part of a private discussion i had with Darcy (god bless him) , had to go way back. He said you may see it as some smiths wanted to avoid a place on the nakago where a brake can begin, a fulcrum point. He mentioned smiths even being wary where they chisel mei, heard that one elsewhere too. Also, Hi running the full length of the blade and nakago, possibly meant to prevent that too.

Cant remember where i read about blade strength in that area with regards hamon running into the nakago. Read somewhere, that the reason you see hamon running into the nakago is to prevent a weakness where swords may break. Certain smiths/schools where you may find it. Something to do with the hard edge on impact, flex, and where the hamon joins the nakago. They knew the weak spots, they only had to look at broken swords after a battle. Looked, cant find it, hopefully someone might remember.

Hi Colin, hamachi is there before quenching, pic from a vid

Think with this smith the hamon strays into the nakago on some blades, sometimes less and sometimes more. This one dont stray far but whoever drew the oshigata picked up on it

Glad someone's chimes in, thought this would have been an interesting subject. Saying that though, i cant think of any subject that has caused more disagreements in the entire time I've been here. Thought lets gets to the bottom of it, or try. As said, didn't spend a great deal of time, focused on looking for similar examples of nakago and where the hamon ends., not so much the blade. Actually. i thought they were 2 good examples of very similar nakago Nakago-jiri the same, unaltered One mekugi-ana (the distance from the ana to the machi looks about right for an ubu blade) Both have carved Mon in the same place., as in they meet the shiny part of the blade where the habaki sits. Let me know your thoughts Jacques, maybe i missed something. if you think this is a bad example i can search for more when i have time.

Dear Jacques You have a point on that one. I certainly wont try and assist anyone like this again Not worth the hassle or the unnecessary insults that go with it Actually, people that come here for info get it FREE, so they shouldbe greatful of anything. Over and out.

Hi Don, you would need to get the false signature professionally removed to attain pass papers. Best thing do is speak with a polisher and get a real "in hand" evaluation, he will tell you if it is worth it or not. Polishing blades is not cheap!

Dear Jacques, You don't need to travel to Japan to get your head around Bizen, seen enough, owned enough, and seen enough online to have an opinion. I dont give a flying feck what you think about me, or to be honest what anyone else thinks about me. I give an opinion, other people give an opinion and that's it, there is no reward, just see it as trying to help folk out You are so weak minded that you feel the need to pick at people and challenge opinions rather than just comment. Think you get an high from this but its becoming boring. You often try and be clever putting other folk down and saying they have Dunning Kruger disorder, but to be honest the only person on here that i think has that condition is you, who the giant %%% do you think you are?. Only a muppet that puts the rest down could have such a condition, no one else does that. You think your clever, put personally, i think your thick as feck. You have a one tracked mind that puts everything into suitable boxes that you can get your head around and cant think outside the box, you are a one tracked mind that can only spew up what is written in a book. Personally, think your full of ****

I n fact Don, can we have a full clear pic of the nakago (handle) of the sword?, cheers

On closer inspection Jean, think you have a point to consider. These are Eisho Bizen swords, for comparison. Always say look at the sword before the ana though, as sometimes they look obviously drilled and other times not. The bottom link, even looking at those you may think at least one is drilled. https://new.uniquejapan.com/a-bizen-1514-sukesada-wakizashi/ https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-katsumitsu-saku/

Typical, hence why leave your swords away when folk visit.

1510-1540 would include Eisho period onwards, that is precisely the era you find Bizen swords with ana like this. Saying that though, not yet convinced it is Bizen. There is something about the hada and hamon that isn't quite there for that era, but i may be wrong. Might be the state of polish. Hamon looks too neat. Its a books out kantei job, Leaning that way though.

Don, maybe you can describe what you see, easier in hand https://markussesko.com/2015/05/13/kantei-2-jigane-jihada-2/ Think im seeing some mokume in there?

You guys expecting to see Asayugi ?, my eyesight not good, im struggling Its times like these you need Aoi art style pics