Viper6924

A really interesting matchlock. Can this be anything else than a Shateki-zutsu (practise gun)? This is without a doubt the smallest caliber matchlock I've ever seen before. So makibari points to very high quality and so does the familyname of the maker. A small nugget of gold!!! Jan

You are forgiven for going off topic One thing is for sure, the vikings are ready if any nasty critters are coming our way! Jan

Thanks for that detailed translation of the gunsmith, Piers. So this is actually a Choshu-zutsu. Normally this style of matchlock is associated with those mostly small caliber long guns featuring a muzzle that extends a good bit out from the stock. But military-grade matchlocks from in and around of Hagi was apparently made to match the specific school that it belonged to. Interestingly enough the 6-monme caliber is specifically mentioned in connection to Choshu gunsmiths. So congrats to a quite rare gun which we can trace back to Choshu. Being made during the final years of the shogunate and used by troops from Choshu, I think it is a good chance that this gun been fired under battle-conditions. Jan

If I'm not mistaken, this is the third matchlock inscribed with the "superior forging" engraved on to the barrel. All of them matchlocks originating from Sendai. The one in my collection displays a superb finish of the steel. It lacks the above mentioned engravings. Instead it comes with three stamped characters which to me reminds me of some sort of quality-control. Funny enough I encountered the same three characters on another matchlock on display at the museum in Sendai. Wonder if this is a Sendai tradition? Jan

Ok Eric, I'll try to keep it short. To study history is very complicated. Most of the time you have to rely on info that in some cases can be hundreds of years old and tainted by the views of the side who managed to win the battles and write history. No difference regarding Japanese history. Talking about the history of Japanese matchlocks is even more complicated. The info in English is best described as meager. So the way I have choosen is to have important texts translated to English. But above all, I have travelled a lot to Japan. I have spent at least 6 month over there in search of knowledge. Not only regarding matchlocks but in a quest to find some answers to many of my questions and in the process to understand the way in which Japanese people thinks and operated. The latter a very important part. I agree that the "Sensei-complex" in Japan sometimes can be frustrating. Especially for us fact-fixated forreigners. But if you start to question every little fact that they present to you I can promise you that you will run out of friends and contacts very quick, leaving you reading books like "Giving up the gun" in order to find some info I am very fortunate to be able to surround myself with very competent people with whom I can futher my knowledge. Of course I don't buy everything they say. But if it's about something trivial I let it pass. If it's about something that I find important I will reply with some suggestions based on my own research. Doing it the correct way and I have noticed that the Japanese are more than willing to engage. But again, demanding proof of everything they say, would be considered extremely bad manners and send you out in the cold. To wrap this up I can give you two example. My statement regarding that the Bushi was allowed to decorate their guns with the kamon of their choosing was told to me by a man who's father and grandfather done some amazing local research. Their ancestors was samurai and used to operate the guns that now collect dust in collections all over the world. Who am I to argue with that especially when the man showed my guns that confirmed this. Now returning to the gun in question in this thread. Was it just blind luck that made me predict that this gun probably was around 4 Monme? No, whilst on the way for a exclusive tour of the matchlock collection in Sendai musuem, I had a very interesting talk with one of the persons that was present at the excavation of Date Masamune's grave. He was the one that said that Masamune prefered to equip his rank and files with 4-Monme matchlocks. This was very interesting when I just discovered that the Uesugi-clan during the Edo-period opted to use the 10-Monme as a standard weapon. So now you know, Eric. Trying to communicate on forums like this is somewhat "constraining". If I demanded absolute proof of every fact presented by the posters, Brian would most likely have to upgrade his storage capacity every week. Absolute truth is hard when dealing with history. That I'm 100% sure of. Jan

From seing pictures of the whole gun, I can with some level of confidence say that this was a no-nonsense matchlock produced for the mass-ranks of Date-infantry. The standard caliber used by Date was 4-Monme (1.38cm). Would be interesting to know the caliber of this one. This would also make sense regarding the kamon. As I said in my earlier post, the rank and file was not allowed to use a personal kamon. They would be issued with an arsenal-gun. If decorated, it would be with the kamon of the main family. In this case the circle with the three bars, which was used by the Date. This is an interesting gun with all the features that you expect to find on a Sendai matchlock. Just take care of that rust. Jan

Looks like the old spelling for Sendai in the beginning, which is good. This style of gun where produced at many locations around the north of Japan. So it's kind of sweet to have a gun that we know was made in Sendai. The rest of the signature will be hard to read due to corrosion. But I'm sure the kanji experts on this forum might be able to translate a few more. Sendai produced a lot of guns and there are over 200 gunsmiths recorded from about 60 different families so there will be quite a few to choose from Jan

Judging by the wire-trigger, extended lockplate and the long "grip" for the matchcord it looks like another Sendai-style matchlock just popped up. Please show us the complete gun if possible. Judging by the slender stock it's a 3-4 monme. Finding more info about kamon is always a fun way to spend a day or two. Sorry to say it's more or less impossible to get it right. When we see a kamon we start looking in the books for a famous family to match it with (I've done it a lot) The problem is that many of these kamon (if orginal Edo-period) many time belonged to a retainer of the ruling family. I've done some extended research into the Uesugi-family. Whilst visiting the area I was fortunate enough to encounter round about 40 guns def confirmed to have belonged to this famous family. I was of course expecting to see the Uesugi-kamon on these guns. I was quite surprised when I discovered a whole bunch of different kamon. When I asked the local experts about why the answer was easy. Each Bushi (not Ashigaru) was allowed to decorated his specific gun with his personal kamon. The style of Kamon on the gun in question looks to fall under that catagory. Many Kamon was indeed meant for export and made during the Meiji-period, as you pointed out Brian. Sorry to say, a lot of them badly executed. Jan

I got exactly the same looking stand delivered with an armour from Japan. Complete crap to be honest. It was unstable with sharp corners. Went out a bought the traditional stand shown in the other picture. The crappy one was later used for target practise. Worked like a charm Jan

Whilst I was visiting Piers in Okayama this past May, we were told to head over to Okayama Pref Museum, to witness something quite amazing. On display was the famous Tachi attributed to the Fukuoka Ichimonji school from the 13th century. It´s also known as the Sanchoumou. It´s a National treasure and as such commands the utmost respect. Whilst Piers and I was closing in on the museum, we saw several buses parked outside which was catering for all the people wanting to catch a very rear glimps of this masterpiece. It´s belongs to an old woman in Okayama. Now I saw in a recent article, that she has desided to sell it. For the moderate sum of 320 million yen. Apparently it´s going home to Echigo (Niigata Pref) where it once was owned by Uesugi Kenshin. Here.s the link to the article: www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201608240063.html I have also included a scan from the paper we got in the museum. Truly happy that I was able to spend 30 min with this treasure. Jan

This is a very interesting question. To continue the answers posted prior to this, I think its fairy safe to say that the first metal screws in Japan were those in connection to the bisen-screw. This was apparently a new technology that proved hard to master for the local blacksmiths tasked with the job. There are very few types of Japanese matchlocks which uses screws. This is actually true for pretty much every matchlock coming out from South East Asia. The Yonezawa-matchlock mentioned by Piers is the one that stands out. It has a large steel screw securing the trigger-guard to the stock.The same screw continues up and attaches to the bisen, like Ian described. But this type of matchlock also got an iron ramrod, which on it´s tip got a screw-on cap under which a "worm" is to be found. This worm was used to remove duds. A third place you will find threads is found on the hibasami. I have included a picture from my Yonezawa. The threads are clearly visible along with an hand forged nut. This is very rare to find on matchlocks. This feature is found on the Yonezawa, Seki and so called Kishu-guns. That the Seki gun is more or less a straight copy from the Yonezawa is not strange. The first Seki-gun was made by an student in Yonezawa that later opened up his own shop near Edo. So that construction is highly influenced by the original Yonezawa-gun which was manufactured 1604, about 15-20 years earlier than the Seki. There are also nuts securing the hibasami on guns made near Negoro/Wakayama in Kii. Unfortunately these are all from the 18th and 19th century. The original Negoro-guns were amongst the earliest matchlocks made after Tanegashima. So it would be fantastic to find an old Negoro-teppo to see if there were any screws fitted on these. The earliest matchlock I know of with a very similar construction to that of the Yonezawa, with a screw fastened into the bisen, is pre-Sekigahara matchlocks from the Satsuma area. These guns are quite different from the traditional Tanegashima-gun. The origin of these large caliber Satsuma guns are very interesting indeed. So to wrap this up, I think the first screws seen in Japan were connected to the first guns from Tanehashima and was used to secure the bisen to the barrel. Judging from the few extant matchlocks made prior to 1600, I would guess that screws located on other places on the matchlock might have been introduced during the 1570-90s. Which in the end inspired the makers of the Yonezawa-gun to produce their style in 1604. Jan

When I look at these inscriptions I get a feel that they fall under the shortened/casual cat. Perhaps contacting an expert is the best way to find out what these invocations really means. That is if Malcolm can't "terminate" this riddle once and for all... Jan

Well, to illustrate my progress so far Start to feel a tingling sensation in my head.... is it enlightenment? No...probably just a delayed concussion Jan

You can consider your kind regards as passed on. Miss you over at "the other place" I'm praying to all sorts of Gods to get through these inscriptions with my sanity intact... Jan

The Red armour collection is waiting for a very important addition. Any day now... I'm so happy to have Piers with me on this latest translation enigma. It's sooo above my pay grade. I'm liking the Bishamonten angle. Thanks for getting the ball rolling, Malcolm!!! Jan

Hi guys! Me and Piers are currently trying to get our heads around a couple of Sanskrit inscriptions. Well, to be honest it´s Piers doing most of the work. There are three facets with these inscriptions. Two which looks identical consisting of seven characters and one with eight. For the sake of an opened mind, I will not show the actual object. I can do that afterwards. But with Sanskrit texts we are dealing with a number of possible "meanings" to this object. Any push in the right direction would be fantastic and highly appreciated. All the best! Jan

The Sonno-Joi (Revere the Emperor, expel the barbarians) reached the high notes during the years around 1860. Many domains didn't want to have anything to do with things western. So a traditionell Japanese matchlock was to prefer over the weapons of barbarians. The xenophobic followers of the sonno-joi was fanatics with little connection to the real world. So why wouldn't a 10 monme matchlock beat a Snyder? Interesting gun you have. 1860 is one if the latest dates I've seen on a matchlock. If you got some more closeups, they would be apreciated. Jan

Well written, Peter! I think you nailed it with the "The reality is that we do NOT know very much about Edo period Japanese firearms". There is very little written about this subject in english and a lot of the Japanese texts are full of "legends" for a better lack of words. When you start to ask some hard questions to the right people in Japan, and trust me here, I have, it becomes painfully clear that there is a lot of questions needing answers. For the question about the samurai and their view on guns that is one of the major key points in Perrins book, there is no easy answer. But I can say that there seems to have been a big regional difference in the way domains handled the question about firearms during the Edo-period. Who knows, there might be something coming in the shape of a book later on But one thing is absolutly certain. The Japanese did not give up their guns. Jan

I've seen some of Roberts work. Top of the line stuff, indeed. I also want to lift my hat to Dave Thatcher. Another Saxon artisan that def knows his way around a katchu hut. Find it quite amazing that the UK got two guys producing great work. Jan

Just got tsuba #45 and #53 today. The transaction was smooth as a 30 year old single malt Focusing on the Satsuma area, these two was a very nice addition. The tetsu on #45 was sweet... Thanks Grev!!! Jan

Thats a lovely little kit you got there, Peter! I just saw an old samurai movie displaying a grinding wheel just like that one. It was used by a man producing fireworks. So it's def related to blackpowder. Would love to have one like that. Very nice find, indeed! Jan

Thanks a lot, Randy! That was a very well writing text, indeed. Jan

I think the biggest error with Noel's book is his notion that the samurai "gave up" the gun because of some sort of ethic reasons and that they also detested the very sight of a matchlock. The samurai was warrior. If they would have gotten hold of a Tomahawk missile during the early 17th century they would have blown away half the main island without thinking twice about. If it killed the enemy = very good. And had Noel taking his time to study local matchlock history, he would have found that some samurai during the relative peaceful 18-19th century honored the history of the local style of matchlock and actually spent money ordering new guns instead of spending them on the real symbol of the warrior class, the sword. Jan

Thanks, BaZZa. We are still very happy together Please do share those matchlocks of yours. Looking and talking about matchlocks is a close second from actually owning them And you often learn a ton of new information. Jan

BaZZa! Here´s a link to the Armor-forum where some pictures are posted. Just scroll down a bit and you find them. http://nihon-no-katchu.proboards.com/thread/129/tazuke-ryu-teppo Jan