dkirkpatrick

Hey, just lurking about as usual :D This looks more Shinto to me in sugata and I think I see a good deal of masame in the shinogi so gittin" in my books I am going to go on a limb with my first ever kantei bid of Etchu Masatoshi (shodai). For some reason Kunihiro jumped in my head when I saw this but one guess per customer! Thanks for this excercise by the way, I will try to "lurk less" and be a little more participatory on the board as I understand that is how the knowledge and passion of Nihonto gets into ourselves and others. Doug

Max, this reminds me of the old joke "How do you keep an idiot in suspense?.....I'll tell you later!" Anyway, as you can see we are all dying so at least throw us a bone as to WHEN you might reveal the discovery of the second Amakuni!!!

Not that I would presume to know anything about stamps but am I the only one that thinks this stamp looks like KANEMITSU?

Peter, Just my two cents. I think it was very much likely a naginata but given the sugata, hakkikake boshi, and the hada and activity I can see I would be leaning more toward koto. Curious as to what makes you think Shinto or later? In any case, it appears to be a very nice piece, I love naginata that don't have that drastic hook at the end! A very stout, powerful looking blade IMO. Just saw Max's post and would ask the same, what are you guys seeing that speaks Shinto to you? I have a similar piece that I pegged as Koto so I am just trying to pick your brains a bit! Doug

Piers, I guess what I am saying is that it seems like I have seen quite a bit of discussion in the past regarding how much hand work went into these wartime blades and I wont pretend to understand their nuances. It seems like it runs the gambit from bar stock with a hadori hamon through Mantetsu, Nagamitsu, Yasukuni stuff. This just looks like something very much in the middle to me, something that in gunto mounts would be good for 600-750 on eBay. I have had swords with nakagos that were incredibly poor in finish but I swear I could see glimmers of hada and hataraki in them. My opinion is that at best it is an also-ran gendai smith whose work is difficult to judge not having it in hand and at worst an oil temper factory work with a mei added at the time of manufacture for a finishing touch. I jumped in simply because it seemed like so many were seeing something sinister vis-a-vis fakery in this piece and nothing struck me in that way whatsoever so I was wondering what I was missing. IMHO:Boring? Yes Fake? I don't think so. By the way, I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone lumping gendaito together like that, I am sure there are many fine works of art among them, they are simply not my cup of tea and their subtle appreciation is perhaps beyond my level of expertise. Doug

Hey gang, Probably not my place to jump into the discussion given the caliber of authors we have on this thread but just thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway. This nakago patina, yasurime, tagane mannerisms, and the painted number remnants that Brian mentioned seem to me to scream showa-to. I also don't understand why this simply doesn't read TSUGUSHIGE. There are a few smiths in Hawley's by this name, admittedly no one of note but it seems that the wartime signers of mei had a tendency to throw any two characters together just to give it a signature. I don't have any examples but seem to recall some odd combinations on swords I have had in the past, didn't ponder them much because I knew they didn't really mean anything. I have also owned showa-to that have had some very peculiar geometry like this one so it's hard to make any judgments base on that. In my opinion the question is whether it is showa-to or gendai-to, my impression is that it is "authentic" but strong leaning to showa-to oil quenched just from the generic mistiness of the habuchi. When it comes to these or PC I find them equally unimportant so I apologize if I have contributed to dragging out this thread but just wanted to get a better understanding of what I am seeing or not seeing in this sword. Thanks to all. Doug

Lee, I agree that without having sword in hand it is very much a matter of conjecture, looks to be nice work regardless. What I am curious about, if you're not tired of discussing this sword to death, is the kissaki/boshi. Among that which scared me away from this piece was my impression from the pictures is that the kissaki would have to be so re-shaped as to totally lose the boshi. However, the pics of the point were pretty dim and I was wondering what your thoughts are now being able to see both sides in good light. Thanks, Doug

I agree with Jacque's suspicion, the hamon shows what might be decent hataraki and the overall geometry just looks too good to be true to my eyes. I would very much like to see more pics to include the nakago. From what I understand, it takes 5 years to get a forging license so figure maybe half of that to be able to produce something "resembling" a real nihonto. Still, rather than shinsaku-to this would still be more something on the order of a Rick Barrett piece perhaps, quality but without the cultural roots. Again, not disparaging Mr. Baretts's work in the slightest as it appears to be quite nice and I certainly will claim great ignorance to his training and forging methods. Again though, there is something about this that looks "authentic" if you will and I think Jacque might be on to something, a little "salting of the mine" to use an American expression.

Harvey, for not being sure about how to take pictures I must say you did a very nice job. I concur with Stephen on the Mino. Looks to be a very nice sword and again nice job with the pics, great sword porn...I just may go have a cigarette! Doug

Handle-Schmandle, lets have pics of that blade! On with the sword porn! Sorry for such overzealousness on an early Sunday morning but I am just dying to see what's in there! I don't care how bad the pictures are, just some sugata...a little kissaki...anything...I need a fix man! :lol:

Andreas, I confess, I too know little about tsuba and tosogu as a whole for that matter. I want to say though that I think this is really an attractive piece. The raised line line inside the rim, the leather wrinkles and stippling is very unique, and the very spartan use of motif makes this a quietly powerful and interesting piece. It's understated beauty seems more in keeping with the Japanese and samurai tradition of austerity and I find it a much more appealing piece than the ones you posted and were outbid on. The marketplace may be of a different opinion but I believe you did very well on your purchase. At the end of the day, all that matters is that you love it but I know it's nice to hear assurances from others, if only to give faith to your own tastes. I thinks it's beautiful, congratulations. Doug

Nanshoku, I am in agreement as well to Bitchu Yoshitsugu and agree it was kind of an exciting looking piece. I was scared off it because looking in the Zuikan and in Fujishiro's I was concerned about signature differences(although that is a tough call to make being a novice and not having more examples to compare it to) as well the appearance of the other side of the nakago. The signature side doesn't look to bad and maybe even age appropriate showing a nice transition from what looks like a fairly recent suriage. But the other side seems to have the same recent red rust all the way down although this could just be bad flash photography. Your right though and for his sake I certainly hope it turns out well (and for mine I hope it doesn't :D ). Thanks for sharing it, it's always fun practicing mei translation and authentication (amateur level of course!) Doug

BDrier, Reading this as TSUNAHIRO, one finds a reference in Hawleys (TSU269) for a smith working 1673-88 that would seem to be in keeping with the mei style and nakago condition. While it lists wide suguha in the notes I am sure this varied with time and requests as it does for many smiths. Just what I could muster quickly, hope it's somewhat helpful. Doug

Sorry this is so late but I have been out of town a few days and away from computers (good and bad I guess!). Thank you so very much Moriyama-san. I think I speak for many on the board when I say your contribution to this board is absolutely priceless. You always have such well detailed answers and give them so quickly that we are truly blessed to have you here. Thanks for your efforts and patience. Doug

Board Members, Sorry I wasted your time with my bungle efforts on my last post. My request pertains to the TAME portion of the signature. I know this is the last Enju Kunimune but can't seem to decipher any of the portion saying who the sword was made for. Any help at all is greatly appreciated and thank you all for your contributions, I read them everyday with great interest. Doug

I see what you mean Stephen but my impression is that it is just o-hada forging that stands hadatachi with liberal nugui. Does look a little strong from the pics though I agree. Doug

Eric, Actually, I believe your nakago reads MASANORI (MAS738). The gist of your question I presume is...is it authentic? My opinion is no, although it is very close in many respects and I could certainly be wrong. Looking in Fujishiros and Shinto Zuikan I just find a few too many small differences for my comfort. Which books do you need? All of them :D. Seriously though, multiple books with as many nakago oshigata as you can afford. In this way, by seeing different examples by the same smith you can see their variations in signing and more importantly, what things stayed the same (e.g. in none of my examples did I see the outer stroke of the FUJI kanji flair out so dramatically as it does in yours). Their is probably a thread on this topic so a search would probably help you alot but my references consist primarily of: NIHONTO KOZA, FUJISHIROS (2 vol.), and NIHONTO ZUIKAN (2 vol.) I am hoping to purchase the taikans but I am also looking forward to what the other board members think the "must-haves" are. From a non-oshigata standpoint the book that is never out of arm's reach (seriously) is "The Conniseurs Guide to Japanese Swords". If I am not working or watching TV, I am in that book. Of course studying swords is the most important thing because ultimately it's quality will ultimately be the standard by which it's judged. Great smiths had bad days and some mid-range guys hit it out of the park once in awhile. Again, though the books are key here because often the condition of the polish we find on swords out of the woodwork often can make it very difficult to judge their quality. Therefore, knowing whether the sword you want to spend 3000.00 on to have saya-ed, habaki-ed, polished, and papered is gimei or not is a good idea. Only the Japanese experts however are truly qualified to make this call but the books and knowledge can give you the courage to submit your sword to shinsa and find out. I own a Hankei wakizashi (can be seen on nihonto.us) that many knowledgeable people believed to be gimei. I studied my books, read, read some more and submitted it and it subsequently passed Toku-hozon. Eric, this turned into more of a screed than I cared to make it but my point is simply that books are absolutely key. Not just to avoid fiscal pitfall, but to further your understanding of this art. Listen to what the board has to say on this subject. I was lucky in that early on in my studies, Andy Quirt would gently chide me (as in "you cheap-ass, buy the d**n book!) every time he would reference some book I didn't have in my library. It was the best thing that could've happened to me.

Hey guys, thought I'd just chip in. This looks an awful lot like a Thai or Burmese Dha, sans handle obviously. I say this because of the way it seems to flare upwards from the base and the dramatic taper of the point. The scabbard also seems to have the same type of banding I have seen on these sword. Just google "Dha sword" Jon and I think you'll see what I am seeing. But then again, its only a guess. Doug

What an interesting topic, one that I had thought about in passing but never contemplated to depth. I would have to say I am in agreement with most of the members of the board. While eating a meal with a 200 year old set of fine silver or using or driving a '63 Corvette gives a one a certain sense of excitement in becoming "one" with history, you certainly wouldn't use the silver for your microwave lunch anymore than you would the car as a primary driver. In perfect condition neither one would be used for their primary function at all. While it seems very romantic (I think) to cut with antique nihonto I think the reasons elicited here combined with the fantastic article Brian posted show this to be less than a good idea. Specifically to your situation, I think this is really a neat sword. I believe the somewhat high price is a function of what is a very nice original, unmonkeyed with koshirae and a 30" blade. You say it came with a handle blank but this would still be need to be shaped and wrapped...another 300-400 with menuki, fuchi/kashira. Then there is the saya, which if you use this one will invariably become dinged up in the course of frequent handling and use. It seems like nice work so that would be a shame. Also, although I have no knowledge of iaido or tameshigiri I am wondering if the dangers inherent in using an old blade aren't exacerbated by the fact that it is 30+" as I would think this would place on the lower half of the blade as the fulcrum(your arm) is farther away from the monouchi. If it were me, I would spring for polish. It looks like there could be alot of nice stuff hiding in there and since you are already in 6000, its your best chance of getting of it should you desire and even if you can't I bet it will still be a knockout blade that you will love looking at. Many people who collect a variety of things have their "show and tell" pieces and use variations of the originals as their "daily driver", you just got your show and tell piece first. Take the advice of this extremely knowledgeable board and find that daily driver. Again, nice sword and "rig", I wish you the best.

It might take a bit of imagination, and of course I could be completely wrong but I think it reads KANEMASU. It's nakago and blade shape also seem "Seki-ish" :? to me which would be consistent with what I think looks like late Koto work. Just a guess of course.

I am sure different people have a variety of opinions on this but I will share my method I have used for doing this. I have a rubber jawed hobby vise but any vise will do. I wrap the nakago in thick cloth (like a long athletic sock or something). Its important to make it VERY thick as the pressure from the jaws can transmit through a lot of material and damage the nakago. You have to make sure the jaws are tight as the blade will tend to rock with so much cloth in between. Before all of this I have dripped in oil around the habaki from underneath and above, anywhere you can get it to go. Don't be tempted to use WD40 or Liquid wrench as these may change the patina of the nakago. I then lightly tap the habaki on all sides but mostly from machi to machi with a small rubber mallet. Don't use anything hard like plastic or you will dent the foil. OK, back to the vise mounted blade I then take a wood clothes pin apart and using one of the halves. The blade being mounted vertically of course I place the narrow flat edge against the top edge of the shinogi part of the habaki and give a few light taps on the end while holding the pin against the habaki blade junction. If you dont make sure its properly seated or try to hit too hard it will hop out and drag down the side of the habaki and probably strip off the foil. Just a couple of light taps and then move to the other side and repeat except this time tapping the ha part of the habaki as tapping it on any one side too long will cause it to tilt and wedge tighter than it already is. Just go very slow, just a few taps at a time and most important...check the blade frequently to make sure it is still firm in the vise as you don't want it coming out the bottom for the obvious reasons. All of this of course presumes you are working on your average blade, if the piece has serious potential then I would of course recommend letting a professional polisher do this as they are the only ones truly qualified to do this. However this is what has worked for me after wrecking more than a few habaki over the years and if anybody has any other ideas I would be interested in hearing them too.

Thats a good start although it would be nice to see the rest of it. Will it be for sale at some date?

Well I think its pretty certain that it reads: SAGAMI KUNI JUNIN HIROMITSU the question is shoshin or gimei. I think it looks not to bad from some of the examples I've seen but their is so much variation in these old mei and I am sure much more experienced eyes than mine on this board will have some thoughts. The work of course is what's key. Now c'mon, ya can't drop a mei like that on us without some detailed sword pics! Cough 'em up! :D

Mike, Just my .02 cents, I looked in Fujishiro's and the Koza and did'nt think the mei looked quite right. In the Koza particularly there is an exact example of this mei on a naginata on pg. 53. There is also an example of Yukihide under the section at the end of this book discussing gimei as well as shoshin mei oshigata within the text of the book. Hope this helps.

Just thought I might put my two cents in. I think that this is a kindai gimei, as explained in vol. 5 of the Koza, of Masayuki who of course later went on to become Kiyomaro. I think gimei because it seems to incorporate enough of the spacing and kanji characteristics that I don't think are conicidence. I say kindai or around the 1930's because of these gimei I have seen they seem to almost deliberately make enough "mistakes" if you will that they strike me as the effort of someone who is trying to deceive, but guilt (or maybe lack of skill) is keeping them from taking the ruse too far. I have a gimei Hizen Tadayoshi very similar to this in that it shares the same kind of "christmas bulb" tagane mannerism on the ends and has the same weird rust; too much and too dark for Showa but not really mellow enough for even Meiji. That said, it's a nice looking gendaito and I suspect in polish this one would be the same. I know this seems a sacrilege but I use 1500 grit sandpaper followed by oil/uchiko on deeply pitted blades like this because your scratches are so far above what will have to be removed that as long as you work carefully and stay off the shinogi line I doubt you could do much damage. This will give you as previously stated a good idea if you really want to throw in for polish as well a humbling lesson as to why good polishers are worth every penny of their asking price. Sorry for the newbie rant and before anyone jumps me too bad I want to emphasize that I only use the sandpaper on intermediate blades with deep polishing needs.