Hello All, just a few questions.

[Pavel]

Hello Everyone,

Great to be here, looks like a fantastic forum.

I wonder if I could get some information, I have been into swords since the 1970's and I still don't know anything,

but I listen well.

This sword has been identified by Fredricks Antique Swords as being a late or "last ditch" machine made real Japanese WW2 sword.

It has also been identified by Wally a las Vegas Collector and Gunto expert, as a chinese forgery.

I am not concerned about the monetary value of the sword, I would like to know before I use my crude attempts at polish or put into shirasaya, and take the chance of harming a piece of history.

The only thing I do know for sure is that this sword feels good in the hand, the balance for such a wide(1 1/4"),thick(5'16")and long(25")blade is astonishing.

It feels sturdy and light. So I want to treat this sword as a real gunto, until I know for sure.

There is a line on the blade both sides.

 

Is there a safe way to remove it?

Or is it possibly a mizukage?

I have pikal polish or uchiko ball and choi oil.

Thank You,

Pavel

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hello Pavel.

I'm replying cause I'm assuming (and I deeply hope to be right) you've never used the family name of Novak. Pavel Novak has bothered many of us with fraudolent attempts to sell swords, hence probably the lack of replies so far.

 

First of all, from what I can see and IMHO the saya and the tsuka aren't from the same blade. Saya should have a button for the leather retention system. Seems it has never been there.

 

The nakago is very crudely made much like shortened and hammered in an hurry.

 

No Tsuba. No military standard curvature (and possibly lenght) apparently.

 

The line might be sign of (re)temper. Still dubious cause you can' say when it has been made.

 

It can be either of the possibilities you list, assembled with what was available and martirized in late June 1945 (imaginary date) or plainly faked.

 

My suggestion is not to waste time and money and eventually keep it as is.

 

[Jean]

Can we have a picture of the kissaki please

[Brian]

No worries, the name Pawel Nowak is as common as John Smith, in Poland I am told.

I hesitate to say this is an outright Chinese fake, and I really don't think it is a production WW2 sword. Someone obviously had a rough go at quenching it. Could this be a crude handmade attempt in one of the colonies or somewhere out in the field by someone who wanted a sword?

If not, then I would go with the fake label. No organized production sword would have borne a nakago like that.

 

Brian

[Pavel]

Hello Pavel.

I'm replying cause I'm assuming (and I deeply hope to be right) you've never used the family name of Novak. Pavel Novak has bothered many of us with fraudolent attempts to sell swords, hence probably the lack of replies so far.

 

First of all, from what I can see and IMHO the saya and the tsuka aren't from the same blade. Saya should have a button for the leather retention system. Seems it has never been there.

 

The nakago is very crudely made much like shortened and hammered in an hurry.

 

No Tsuba. No military standard curvature (and possibly lenght) apparently.

 

The line might be sign of (re)temper. Still dubious cause you can' say when it has been made.

 

It can be either of the possibilities you list, assembled with what was available and martirized in late June 1945 (imaginary date) or plainly faked.

 

My suggestion is not to waste time and money and eventually keep it as is.

 

[attachment=0]rsz_rsz_450.jpg[/attachment]

 

Nice to meet you ALL

Thank You for the replies.

You are concurring what Alf at Japanese swords.com just emailed me, he said that the tang was hastily shortened, I think the mizukage might be an indicator of a shortened blade as well.

The yokote is slanted but there is one, and the sword is four inches shorter than the saya.

 

 

 

Can we have a picture of the kissaki please

 

No worries, the name Pawel Nowak is as common as John Smith, in Poland I am told.

I hesitate to say this is an outright Chinese fake, and I really don't think it is a production WW2 sword. Someone obviously had a rough go at quenching it. Could this be a crude handmade attempt in one of the colonies or somewhere out in the field by someone who wanted a sword?

If not, then I would go with the fake label. No organized production sword would have borne a nakago like that.

Brian

 

I have quite a few fakes, I make them into shirasaya and it is different than any of the fakes I have, this blade is thicker and wider and the balance is superb.

I have no proof other than three experts saying it is a real Japanese sword and a gut feeling. I think it might be a home or field hack job, it doesn't feel like a machine made blade. There is a hint of a undulating hamon and there appears to be waves in the steel itself almost a damascus wave.

BTW.

I was just emailed by Pawel Nowak with an offer of two antique swords, never heard of the guy until you mentioned him.

He must of got my email from here.

And No I have never used the name.

[cabowen]

the proportions look off....the shinogi-ji is too wide.....I doubt this was made by a professional Japanese smith....the mizukage says it has an ersatz heat treatment....

[Brian]

Yep. I don't think there is much chance of this being a real Nihonto, butchered or not. I still maintain my guess of a field or colony hobby work.

 

Brian

[Pavel]

the proportions look off....the shinogi-ji is too wide.....I doubt this was made by a professional Japanese smith....the mizukage says it has an ersatz heat treatment....

Nice to meet you,

At the ending of the war, weren't many swords made by less than Master Sword Smiths?

I am unfamiliar with the term ersatz heat treatment.

Were some mizukage deliberate?

[cabowen]

Nice to meet you,

At the ending of the war, weren't many swords made by less than Master Sword Smiths?

I am unfamiliar with the term ersatz heat treatment.

Were some mizukage deliberate?

 

No, after the war swordmaking was prohibited until the 1950's and then only smiths licensed by the government could make swords. To be licensed you had to pass a proficiency test.

 

Ersatz means not real or genuine, or inferior replacement.......

 

Mizukage was never deliberate. It does occur on some blades near the hamachi as a result of the original heat treatment (seen in the horikawa school) but it is generally a sign of a re-hardening...

[Jean]

Hi Novak,

 

There are 3 ways to see if we are facing a real Nihonto in taking photos.

 

1 - Nakago / Tang

2 - Hada

3 - Kisssaki / Point : It is often as the nakago a tell tale. I am not convinced at all by the fukura

 

I am not convinced at all it is a Nihonto from your pictures but it has been (or seems to be) so martyrized ....

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I was just emailed by Pawel Nowak with an offer of two antique swords, never heard of the guy until you mentioned him.

He must of got my email from here.

 

Sorry, Pavel, but as you too have got an e-mail from him I'm sure you'll understand my caution.

 

Welcome.

[Pavel]

I send photos out to a few different experts and websites everyday, it is running about 50/50 on real or not.

It is fun for me because it does not matter if if is worth $10 or $10,000, I am not looking to sell it.

Some tell me there should be a leather cover on the saya, and it looks like it was covered in something, there are still chisel marks on the saya and almost no finish, it is honoki wood.

 

To me there is maybe a small chance that it had immediate battlefield surgery preformed on it by shortening the tang, regrinding the tip and a quick tempering.

My roommate who has better eyesight, says they see a undulating grain to the blade(hada?) and there is a visible hamon.

I will take a few days and use pikal on it, to hopefully bring out the hamon, that will tell us more right?

This is one of the sharpest swords I have ever seen, you cannot see most of the edge at all. The balance even without the rest of the furniture is fantastic, it makes me wonder if the tip and tang weren't shortened to cause the corrected balance, I wonder if the tip was busted so it was reground and the tang was shortened for balance.

 

Do You think I have created a fantasy scenario or a plausible story?

 

Even if Brian is right a field creation, to me there is enough doubt for me to treat it as real.

 

 

 

No, after the war swordmaking was prohibited until the 1950's and then only smiths licensed by the government could make swords. To be licensed you had to pass a proficiency test.

 

Ersatz means not real or genuine, or inferior replacement.......

 

Mizukage was never deliberate. It does occur on some blades near the hamachi as a result of the original heat treatment (seen in the horikawa school) but it is generally a sign of a re-hardening...

 

I would think that at the closing months of the war, everyone and their kids were making weapons.

I have talked to Japanese Smiths and they say they moved from Japan to ply their trade because there were too many restrictions. There must be a few different reasons that so many blades were unsigned

Thanks for the definition of ersatz, I will remember it.

Here is where I get a little confused so I brought you this from a great site, what do you think?:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/kizu.htm

 

"# MIZUKAGE - Cloudly line running diagonally from the ha (edge) near the ha-machi. This is commonly a sign that the blade has been retempered. While there were a few smiths that made mizukage deliberately, most often it is considered a flaw and indicator of a retempered blade. On retempered blades the hamon will sometimes stop in front of the ha-machi. Again, some smiths did this deliberately, but most commonly it is a sign of a retempered blade."

 

Regardless of anything else I want to thank you all for taking the time with this, it has already provided more fun than I paid for.

Pavel

[Pavel]

 

Sorry, Pavel, but as you too have got an e-mail from him I'm sure you'll understand my caution.

 

Welcome.

 

No worries Carlo.

 

I think it was a real nice thing to warn me of the guy, and I really appreciate it.

I do like to scambait at times anyway.

 

I took some more photos and found this:

Is this an indication of a re-bent sword?

SHINAE - Ripples or wrinkles in the skin steel generally due to a bent blade having been straightened. These can be anywhere on the blade (shinogi-ji, mune, etc).

Here are both sides of the tip:

 

I ran some pikal over the blade and in less than five minuets it looked like this:

I think at one time it had a real polish and it would not take much to put it back on.

[Guido]

This is one of the sharpest swords I have ever seen, you cannot see most of the edge at all.

Huh?

I have talked to Japanese Smiths and they say they moved from Japan to ply their trade because there were too many restrictions. There must be a few different reasons that so many blades were unsigned.

That’s news to me, can you name a few? And why wouldn’t they sign their swords?

Thanks for the definition of ersatz, I will remember it.

“Ersatz” is a German word and means “substitute”.

[hybridfiat]

Forgive me but this post hurts the eyes and is using a lot of bandwidth over what is obviously a piece of s#*t.

Is that too graphic or does it summarise what many of us are thinking.

[Pavel]

Huh?

That’s news to me, can you name a few? And why wouldn’t they sign their swords?

“Ersatz” is a German word and means “substitute”.

When I check an edge on any edged item be it a chisel or sword, I look down the edge and if light reflex then it is a dull edge, If you cannot see the edge then it is sharp.

I do not feel the edge for sharpness.

One of the Smiths I have talked to over the years said he(cannot remember his name)was moving to Australia to make real swords.

Another one said he worked at the forge in Loquan China, think his name was Zhi or something. I really have no way of checking ID over the net, but I believe it is possible to detest Government involvement enough to want to leave the country, to practice your art. Many times in my life I have cursed the governments dictating my actions and have thought of leaving the country of my birth.

The U.S. government tells it's people what to eat(fda) what to drink(atf) what to smoke(dea) what to wear(dot) and what to say(fcc).

Think about it.

 

Thanks that makes sense that ersatz would be used for an inferior item or process.

[Pavel]

Forgive me but this post hurts the eyes and is using a lot of bandwidth over what is obviously a piece of s#*t.

Is that too graphic or does it summarise what many of us are thinking.

 

Nice to meet you.

 

Excuse me for offending you, it was not my intent.

I will do my best not to offend you again.

If you could leave me a list, so I will know better next time.

 

Just out of curiosity who did teach Japan to make steel anyway?

 

Be happy for no reason

Pavel

[Brian]

Ok..so this is the time we invariably get to where I have to lock the thread, and get the private massages about either:

a) We are discussing junk and spending too much time on it...or...

b) We are discouraging newbies by being too blunt and putting down mediocre stuff or low class rubbish.

 

Take your pick. I think we try our best to be diplomatic, but if that fails to work, then there is really no other option but to be blunt. People who are offended either give up the hobby, or work through it and become better collectors who educate themselves more.

 

So..this blade. It is NOT an original WW2 sword that has been altered. Use any logic you like, it is going to be wrong. When you shorten a tang, there is no need to stuff up the geometry of the entire tang. You cut a bit off it. The other lines remain straight and try and have some class. There is no need to grind the whole thing and make it look terrible. This is not a real nakago. That is not a real habaki. Those are not real seppa, or mekugi. That is not honoki wood.

 

You also don't shorten the blade from the tip. That is a no-no that every Japanese sword owner knows. If the tip breaks, you also don't resharpen on a grinder leaving every single line wrong. And why would you shorten from the back and the front? Definitely not for balance. Never.

 

No, there was never a case of "everyone and their kids" making weapons. The sword was symbolic...and this art remained with certain smiths. There were regulations, and anything this sub-par would have been rejected immediately.

 

No....there are no known Japanese smiths that went to Oz or China to get away from restrictions. This is a rumour that persists. Perhaps to sell Chinese fakes.

 

This is some hobby job that someone churned out for themselves. Maybe by a soldier who wanted one out in the middle of nowhere, or some native somewhere that had seen a real one. Maybe by Bubba in 1950 who wanted a sword like his buddy had. Not by any organized Japanese production method. Basically, not a Japanese sword. Possibly militaria though, who knows.

 

That does it I guess. If anyone has anything really valid to add, pm me.

 

Brian